Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

[Tom Lowe]

Red is a 4K company now. End of story.

As Jim has said all along, "Everything is subject to change."

 

[Ryan Farnes]

Red is a 4K company now. End of story.

As Jim has said all along, "Everything is subject to change."

"End of story" immediately followed by "Everything is subject to change."

Ironic.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Red is a 4K company now. End of story.

I understand what you are trying to say, but you have to agree with me when I sat that 4k is not the "end of the story", it's actually just the beginning... Who needs a prequel to the RED ONE

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Red is a 4K company now. End of story.

As Jim has said all along, "Everything is subject to change."

Thanks Tom, you said what I was trying to say -- albeit much more concisely.

 

[Mark Phelan]

Kyle, you're not giving any tough love here, you're venting, again and again and again. We get it. RED gets it. Saying it over and over isn't going to solve anything and will not make you feel better, even though you think it will. So now that you've had all weekend to vent, say what you want and tell everyone how they are wrong, what are you going to do come Monday? How long are you going to sulk? Now that the dye is cast, either go buy something that will fit closest to what you want and can afford, or wait for the next greatest thing, whatever that is. But this continual diatribe is going in circles. Makes me wonder what you would have done prior to there being an Internet as a soapbox. Talk is cheap, what are you going to do now?

 

[drew sandoval]

RED now has a two tier Epic setup where the entry point, shooting ready is $15.000 (realistically $20.000+), which means that both cameras cater to the same crowd....

I think this is the main problem, that by the time you have your Scarlet up and running (the $9750 price version won't actually get you anywhere) it will cost $20k plus for a reasonable system. That wasn't what we were originally sold three years ago. This camera was always meant to be the step up from DSLRs, the camera that gets the little guy shooting something that can appear on the big screen. This was the camera that was gonna go beyond DSLRs and was gonna change everything.

Jim was right when he said in the last week of October that if you got rid of all preconceived notions this camera was gonna be awesome. And he is right, for $20k you get twice as much any other camera in the 10-20k price range, but he said it was gonna be a camera for the little guy, in the $5-10k range, and not just another "rental only" cam for us, like the F3 or the R1.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

So now that you've had all weekend to vent, say what you want and tell everyone how they are wrong, what are you going to do come Monday?

what's nice is that all the other complaining threads are starting to fade away, and this one only persists because it has such a great thread title. have to give Kyle his due for complaining with superior artistry and craft....

 

[Tom Lowe]

"End of story" immediately followed by "Everything is subject to change."

Ironic.

I don't really see any irony. Jim has told us all along that Red is a new company finding their way, and that things will change. At some point, Jim made the decision that he would not make cameras incapable of shooting 4K. This, to me, is the correct decision, because it's consistent with the "4K future" he has been preaching for almost five years. I always saw the 3K camera as being inconsistent with Jim's 4K vision, but I figured that maybe in Jim's mind the 3K Scarlet was just a way to get more shooters into the Red ecosystem, and that would not be a bad thing at all. But again, at some point, Jim decided that he wanted Red to be a pro company that was basically "4K or bust." It's Jim's company, it's Jim's vision, it's Jim's choice.

I would really suggest to people who are bummed about the 3K camera disappearing to look into buying a used Red One. Hopefully prices will come way down on those cameras soon. They are fantastic cameras!

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Thanks.

Your grief will pass with time.

I was also waiting for 8x Fixed, would easily have taken the Scarlet X for the same price though =) as it's a much better camera, but was a bit bummed by the 2 times+ price point.

Now, the Scarlet X is the better "makes more sense" camera and there are a lot of very happy campers out there right now. But the event wasn't supposed to be for them.

I remember thinking that when Jim reinforced his statement that this was going to be a Scarlet Event, I felt that so many users here were day dreaming about 4k and S35 =). Scarlet was never about that (after it got kicked up to Epic S)

It's important to remember that even in disappointment, we try to show our finest quality and chose our wording carefully. There are losers on both sides of the fence here.

What leaves a bitter after taste in my mouth however, is the S35 clique waving their sticks at you. They got what they wanted on your event and should be able to cut you some slack for a week or two.

I didn't get to read your first post, but you did correct it, which means that you did reflect on what you said and that you stand by your opinion.

 

[Eric Rodemann]

I don't really see any irony. Jim has told us all along that Red is a new company finding their way, and that things will change. At some point, Jim made the decision that he would not make cameras incapable of shooting 4K. This, to me, is the correct decision, because it's consistent with the "4K future" he has been preaching for almost five years. I always saw the 3K camera as being inconsistent with Jim's 4K vision, but I figured that maybe in Jim's mind the 3K Scarlet was just a way to get more shooters into the Red ecosystem, and that would not be a bad thing at all. But again, at some point, Jim decided that he wanted Red to be a pro company that was basically "4K or bust." It's Jim's company, it's Jim's vision, it's Jim's choice.

I would really suggest to people who are bummed about the 3K camera disappearing to look into buying a used Red One. Hopefully prices will come way down on those cameras soon. They are fantastic cameras!

I don't think they were able to make the 2/3 3k camera.

the current Scarlet uses second chips from the Epic. It's not a new sensor, not a new design. I think they wanted to make a 2/3 3k camera, and just couldn't do it at a price that would sell.

I think they found out that they could make a 2/3 3k cam, but they'd have to sell it for 15k or more by the time they worked out all the kinks and got it into production, and no one was gonna pay for that, so time for plan B, a camera made with chips that didn't pass for Epic.

It's Jim's company, and he figured out he couldnt' make the 2/3 3k cam at a price point that would sell and make a profit. Nothing wrong with that, it's a business after all.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

I would really suggest to people who are bummed about the 3K camera disappearing to look into buying a used Red One. Hopefully prices will come way down on those cameras soon.

The RED One doesn't strike me as a hand holdable run 'n' gun with a fat 5" touch screen and a T2.6 constant 8x quality RED zoom.

I'm not even sure most of the 3k crowd cared all that much for 3k at all. 2k @120 fps would have been fine for many, I'm sure.

They are fantastic cameras!

I'm sure they are.

 

[Tom Lowe]

You're assuming a lot of things. To me, on the face of it, it's very simple. The market changed, meaning that a 2/3 sensor was no longer viable in a market that changed so dramatically since 2008. Every new serious cinema camera now has an S35 chip. The market changed. Equally important, it's difficult for Jim to preach to all of us about how the future is 4K, and then make a 3K camera. It's logically inconsistent.

So, just from a broad, outside perspective, these two factors alone explain the change, in my mind.

 

[Tom Lowe]

The RED One doesn't strike me as a hand holdable run 'n' gun with a fat 5" touch screen and a T2.6 constant 8x quality RED zoom.

I'm not even sure most of the 3k crowd cared all that much for 3k at all. 2k @120 fps would have been fine for many, I'm sure.

I spent over a year of my life running and gunning at 3K 50fps with the Red One, and it was awesome.

Where there is a will, there's a way.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Hmm

Hmm

I try to react to stuff like this as logically as possible. I mean, overall to me it was mixed news to be honest.

On the one hand, I feel that Kyle is right because we were all looking forward to a $6,000 or so camera that would have been very good still and filled a good market niche. For us, we could have used it as a go-to corporate camera, replacing the HVX200s that we have, and I really would enjoy that. I don't think of it as being "promised" anything by RED, only that I was excited by the prospect and it was something I thought ok well I'll hold off on buying other options because the RED company is such a strong one.

That being said, the news was also kind of amazing in the sense that from my perspective, I'm looking at a camera now that I could justify buying and using for my next feature film and higher-end commercial or corporate work. I shot my first feature with the RED One, or I mean we used it on the film, and of course I loved it. So if I could use the Scarlet, I could at least get away with just renting the lenses for the shoot, rather than the camera and accessories. That frees me up to hire whatever DP I think is best, rather than worrying about hiring one with the right equipment package to save money if we're working on a small budget.

And overall the camera is pretty amazing sounding given the relatively low price tag. So, overall, I guess I'm excited but not sure if I can get it or not. Still thinking it over.

 

[Mark Toia]

I think its best RED stop sharing there plans & dreams.. thats what gets them in trouble, People fall in love with these dreams and when RED changes there mind, all hell breaks loose..

It's common with small children on Christmas day.

I think a lot of people need to get over it and move either onto greener pastures or use the current RED cameras as they are. Thats it.. Done. finito... move on.

For one, I'm shooting more per day than I could ever do before with any other camera... (yes Alexa included) I can shoot all sorts of jobs with one camera now, Slo-mo, 4k, etc etc etc..... Could not do that before. I can do a majority of post in house now, could not do that before, I can grade RAW onset in real time... Could not do that before...
There is a lot of things we could not do before until RED cameras (especially EPIC) came into our studios.

And the price comparative to shooting and owning 35mm gear is literally 1/20th of what it was.
40K 5k RAW compared to 250k for a 35mm camera or 80k for a HD only (non slo mo) Arri pro res camera... Sheeesh.. easy math
Scarlet even out performs Alexa on many levels...

Agree though... people should just go buy a Canon 5d or a C300 or Sony or panasonic something....

What a lot of people forget is, is that a 12k Scarlet even out performs 80k Arris Alexa !!!!!..

Anyway... EPIC is the bomb.. I dont even care about Scarlet. I'll only use it for as a disposable CRASH camera in risky situations with a cheep canon lense... so I don't damage an EPIC.

You guys can scrap over the Scarlet, I dont even know why jim thought he had to build it. Just being nice I think.

Think yourselves lucky that he even did. and if you don't... well there are alot of other cameras you can buy. ( but not cheap & light weight that shoot 4k RAW)

 

[Cenydd Ros]

Really, honestly, seriously, I appreciate all those who wanted a super-duper camcorder. Some day, probably not far away, there will be a super-duper camcorder. It's just a matter of time, and things are moving fast in this medium. So relax, if not today then tomorrow. If not RED, then Canon or JVC or Panasonic. I'm not baggin', just saying you will get what you want. If there is a desire for it, someone will build it. Maybe not RED, but somebody. Market interest breeds product. It's just a matter of time.

 

[AJ Aguirre]

I spent over a year of my life running and gunning at 3K 50fps with the Red One, and it was awesome.

Where there is a will, there's a way.

This to me says a lot. Awesome picture Tom!

 

[Kyle Presley]

Kyle, you're not giving any tough love here, you're venting, again and again and again. We get it. RED gets it. Saying it over and over isn't going to solve anything and will not make you feel better, even though you think it will. So now that you've had all weekend to vent, say what you want and tell everyone how they are wrong, what are you going to do come Monday? How long are you going to sulk? Now that the dye is cast, either go buy something that will fit closest to what you want and can afford, or wait for the next greatest thing, whatever that is. But this continual diatribe is going in circles. Makes me wonder what you would have done prior to there being an Internet as a soapbox. Talk is cheap, what are you going to do now?

I hear what you are saying, but the outpouring of support and agreement from other users has been very vindicating. In regard to "telling everyone they are wrong." That's simply not true. Everyone has a right to feel anyway they want and I would say that a good many of us feel the shaft. I speak for those who now fear the ban-stick and won't say anything. I do not have that fear. I don't want to get banned, but if I do, it will be for standing up for all the little people who Red forgot about. The only one I am telling is wrong is Red. You have every right to disagree with me, and I respect that.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I think this is the main problem, that by the time you have your Scarlet up and running (the $9750 price version won't actually get you anywhere) it will cost $20k plus for a reasonable system..

Maybe I'm crazy but I have no intent of spending $20k on my scarlet package.

$14k + $900 for an extra 64GB card.

Where is the next $5k coming from?

 

[Phil Anderson]

I am mad. But, I speak for many many people who feel the same way...

I'm one of them. Pretty much anyway. Don't agree with every one of your criticisms, but most of it, yes.

The "old" Scarlet had more features I found beneficial (frame rates, HDRx at 3k, etc.), I don't need 4k, let alone 3k, really. And a 2/3" chip is very standard in my industry (TV), and very worthy. I didn't need 4k and a bigger chip, at the expense of less features, at double the cost.

I think what happened is that Red bit off more than they could chew with their hype. It happened first with 3k at $3k. Then again with the $6k camera. In the end they knew they had to get something out due to very restless natives, and Canon's impending 300s release, not to mention the onslaught of DSLRs, especially when the likes of Shane Hurlbut and Gale Tattersal embracing them in professional productions. So they took what they could from the (now certainly abandoned) Epic-S and extra Epic parts, saw what Canon was to deliver, knew they could (mostly) top it's specs and price, branded it as Scarlet, used the "professional must be 4k" pitch, and called it a success. And in many ways it is, or could be.

The only problem is that there's quite a few natives who took Red's word for what the future would portend, are now are written out of the story, and not likely to forget what once was purported to be. Kyle just happens to be the one bold enough to speak out about it.