Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

[Emanuel A.]

(...) this was the greatest announcement in Red's history.

Actually it was, time and numbers will tell ;-)

 

[Emanuel A.]

And this is what David Mullen has said on the subject:

We are just feeling the results of a fundamental sea-change with the Scarlet -- for those wanting an entry-level pro S35 digital cinema camera, or a back-up for their Epic package, the new Scarlet makes a lot of sense -- it would intercut great with the more expensive cameras, use the same glass and accessories, etc. The pricing is very good, way below anything comparable on the market.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...S16-a-request.&p=860647&highlight=#post860647

The Scarlet is an amazing bargain for a pro digital cinema camera... my only disappointment was that the 2/3" fixed-lens Scarlet looked FUN, pro quality with prosumer ease-of-use and size, whereas this new Scarlet looks like a serious pro camera. I look at it and I think of work, not running in my spare time around shooting my own personal projects with my friends. And I can't drop $12,000+ on a package for personal use... $7000 was more doable. To justify buying a Scarlet now I'd have to figure out how to rent it to my productions as a C-camera, and I'd probably have to invest in it with more lenses and accessories than I would care to for personal use. In the end, I may end up spending over $20,000 and I don't normally rent equipment at all so I don't have a clue as to the process of paying off such an investment in a timely fashion. A $7000 personal movie camera like the fixed-lens Scarlet, that I wouldn't have to justify spending the money on.

The new Canon is a disappointment, $20,000 just to get 8-bit 4:2:2 1080P at 50 mb/sec. Six years ago, that would have been something amazing, now I think most people were hoping for 4K RAW motion images out of a Canon for under $10,000.

Personally I think $10,000 or under is what the Canon and the Sony F3 really should be selling for, and that the Scarlet is a steal at that price range.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...-it-s-raining.&p=859943&highlight=#post859943

 

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Why oh why, don't you quote David Mullen correctly? His second paragraph is very telling of why this thead exist in the first place:

We are just feeling the results of a fundamental sea-change with the Scarlet -- for those wanting an entry-level pro S35 digital cinema camera, or a back-up for their Epic package, the new Scarlet makes a lot of sense -- it would intercut great with the more expensive cameras, use the same glass and accessories, etc. The pricing is very good, way below anything comparable on the market.

For those that thought of Scarlet as a completely different sort of camera line from Red, something like a better SI2K or Ikonoskop, or a digital 16mm Canon Scoopic/Bolex, or some other kick-ass little camera that is semi-pro, semi-consumer that would avoid all the pitfalls of shooting video on a Canon 7D or GH2, etc. -- in the $7000 price range -- then the disappearance of the 2/3" Scarlet is a disappointment and saying that you can just crop the picture of the S35 Scarlet is sort of missing the point -- you can crop an IMAX camera's picture to 16mm if you wanted to, that doesn't make it into a 16mm camera.

I don't the two groups being satisfied with the other group's desires regarding Scarlet. For those that wanted an affordable version of the Epic, the new Scarlet is better than the idea of a separate 2/3" system with separate lenses, etc. For those that wanted to get the only 2/3" 3K RAW camera on the market that was sort of a suped-up handicam with a fixed zoom, and priced just above a Canon 5D, then they are going to have to wait for someone else to create that product.

 

[J Davis]

... without a gentle word from the leader, next to being called unprofessional...

I agree 100% ... this was the biggest thing that was missing on Nov 3rd, it could have ben handled so much better

 

[Emanuel A.]

Why oh why, don't you quote David Mullen correctly? His second paragraph is very telling of why this thead exist in the first place:

I did it, even with two posts from him about the same. You're saying his SECOND paragraph in first place?! I am sorry, but to each its own

His condolence words don't count in the race once there's no 2/3" anymore, only inside the new Scarlet-X 35mm sensor size format. But you can take a look into the posting of someone else who's quoting Mr. Mullen wrongly giving the idea the new Scarlet is a disappointment. And he said rather the opposite. No more, no less.

Here is the reason for my David Mullen quoting.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Plus the fact that if James Cameron gets his way and 48 or even 60 fps becomes the 3D standard, Scarlet-X won't be able to handle 3D at the higher rate at 3K even without HDRx. Something to consider if you were planning to do 3D with your rig.

If, if. I doubt there won't still be 'if'(s) of that kind later as same as today.

Vittorio Storaro has had another one: 2:1 Jim's too BTW.
Do you still believe both will see it without a series of 'if'(s) midway, that is, if both visionaries will ever see it anyway?
Jim, for instance, had seen a 2/3" camcorder first for 2K-3K that ended up for 3x/4x in the end of the road a few years later (E

Yet speaking of quotes, here is another one from Michael Biggins. On what the lack of faster frame rates can actually save all of us, shooters and viewers, from bad motion ...and useless ideas from talented filmmakers converted in crazy digital moviemakers (another plus for Scarlet-X LOL ;-)

«To answer your question, only 1 that I can think of. "Public Enemies" with Johnny Depp was shot digitally at 24p but included some 60p sequences (only in theateres where it was DIGITALLY projected). I saw it in such a theater and found it quite jarring and did not like the 60p sequences at all - however I did find it fascinating to be able to compare and contrast on a big budget commercially released movie. I am not sure if the blu-ray kept these 60p sequences or converted everything to 24p but to get an idea of what it looked like, simply run any of the home theater software or TVs that have the "true motion" or similar feature and add frames to bring 24p to 60p. To me it looks like a bad soap opera and ruins the movie but see if YOU like it.»

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...2-Comparison&p=2465626&viewfull=1#post2465626

«This is the artistic thing that people don't get. 60p does in fact make things look more real - which makes a dramatic thing such as a narrative fictional movie take on the look of the 6 o'clock news or "the making of" behind the scenes footage. Costumes look like costumes, sets look like sets.... something of the hypnotic artistic suspension of disbelief illusion is lost. More 'REAL' looking is not necessarily BETTER for artistic pieces. If such were the case, all painters would be photographers, not painters.»

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...2-Comparison&p=2465630&viewfull=1#post2465630

 

[Travis Freeburg]

I think expressing concern should be encouraged... Although if you're complaint is that you spent money in prep of a cheaper scarlet... I'm sorry... but I had a sneaking suspicion that this would be the case from the get go.

My concern is the same as many others... its not about what was promised or expected, but rather what we got. I remember reading a twitter post the other night... "so scarlet is epic's retarded brother?"

the response?

"Nooo its Epic's little sister"

In reality... no, it is the retarded brother. As bad as it was that Red had to lose that money off the fixed Scarlet, what they basically did was make a second brain for Epic but dumbed down. Thats it. Scarlet is Epic, but crippled a bit. Its Dirt cheap, and more than enough, and fantastic in all that sense for the price, but its not scarlet. Its Epic Lite.


I think the sense of betrayal (is that too strong?) is somewhat legitimate. Jim could have said... Epic Lite is now Scarlet.... And that is all of scarlet.

From a business standpoint, it's good for consumer and red as far as accessories and modules go... They can focus on one line...

But since 4k does end up really 3.2k... Maybe another, even cheaper brain in the future would be nice... Maybe something will workout after Dragon.

 

[John Caballero]

It is now Kyle vs The Fanboys! Kyle, sorry, you will never win the argument. It could have been priced at $50K for the body and these guys would have been cheering! The next few months are going to be very telling. The truth is if you have $15K sitting around, hey, why not use it.? After all this is a magical camera. Sort of like the stuff from Warehouse 13!

 

[Zeb B]

it's raining

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I did it, even with two posts from him about the same. You're saying his SECOND paragraph in first place?! I am sorry, but to each its own

His condolence words don't count in the race once there's no 2/3" anymore, only inside the new Scarlet-X 35mm sensor size format. But you can take a look into the posting of someone else who's quoting Mr. Mullen wrongly giving the idea the new Scarlet is a disappointment. And he said rather the opposite. No more, no less.

Here is the reason for my David Mullen quoting.

I was just trying to explain some of the disappointment, not say that the Scarlet-X is a disappointing camera -- it's not, not spec-wise and not price-wise. Not for people who wanted an entry-level 35mm sensor digital cinema camera that shoots 4K RAW. Those people would have disappointed if Scarlet had gone the other way, to 3K with a 2/3" sensor aimed at a more prosumer market.

But the people who wanted that smaller, cheaper prosumer Scarlet instead are going to be disappointed with a more expensive S35 camera that needs pro accessories. You can't please everyone. I suppose if the S35 Scarlet was coming out at $7000 for everything needed to shoot, then more than half that were going to get the fixed 2/3" Scarlet would have still been happy since price was their primary issue, but the people that were looking forward to the smaller form factor and ease-of-use of a fixed lens and a format with more depth of field were still going to be disappointed.

 

[Emanuel A.]

It is now Kyle vs The Fanboys! Kyle, sorry, you will never win the argument. It could have been priced at $50K for the body and these guys would have been cheering! The next few months are going to be very telling. The truth is if you have $15K sitting around, hey, why not use it.? After all this is a magical camera. Sort of like the stuff from Warehouse 13!

No John, there's no fanboys vs rest of the world

Take just a glance on the 1st link of this thread and you'll understand quite well what I'm saying, but feel free to find many others:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?66159-Thanks-note-in-a-memorable-weekend

 

[Emanuel A.]

I was just trying to explain some of the disappointment, not say that the Scarlet-X is a disappointing camera -- it's not, not spec-wise and not price-wise. Not for people who wanted an entry-level 35mm sensor digital cinema camera that shoots 4K RAW. Those people would have disappointed if Scarlet had gone the other way, to 3K with a 2/3" sensor aimed at a more prosumer market.

But the people who wanted that smaller, cheaper prosumer Scarlet instead are going to be disappointed with a more expensive S35 camera that needs pro accessories. You can't please everyone. I suppose if the S35 Scarlet was coming out at $7000 for everything needed to shoot, then more than half that were going to get the fixed 2/3" Scarlet would have still been happy since price was their primary issue, but the people that were looking forward to the smaller form factor and ease-of-use of a fixed lens and a format with more depth of field were still going to be disappointed.

Thanks for your input. As usual but never enough said, your voice is always much necessary not only for the wisdom reproduced here but also in order to enlighten better some (and any) angle. World is full of colors.

Emanuel

 

[filmgut]

I think the scarlet X is a good camera, but for different works, for feature film and movie productions.

For documentary filming a 2/3" scarlet would be very nice.
Now we was waiting (the last three years) for the 2/3" scarlet.
Sorry guys, things are changing...
It´s like the FCP X story - a half year before the release of FCP X, the FCP X was "awesome".
After the release - everybody knows what it is...

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Kyle, I understand your frustration but sometimes you have to draw a line in the sand in terms of what you stand for as a company -- Jim/Red is by far the leading 4k evangelist, it is so fundamental to their philosophy that offering a sub-4k camera just did not make sense.

Read the biography of Steve Jobs. Often he had to make tough decisions about omitting a key component or element or pricing that perhaps alienated people, but it was always in the spirit of innovation ... i.e. making a dramatically better, more forward overall product.

Red is the leader in DMSC/motion camera technology/innovation right now, and they got there by showing people a future/specs that many didn't even yet know they wanted, jut like Apple often did. To maintain that lead, Red has to stick to it's guns and continue to push the industry forward in accordance with what it knows to be best. 4k is a big part of that.

 

[John Caballero]

No John, there's no fanboys vs rest of the world

Ooops!, I forgot there are no fanboys, just "loyal followers", my bad. In any case, Red has only itself to blame for getting a very huge market segment believing that they were on the side of the oppressed by the big camera companies. The ones that were stepped on when they crippled on purpose the video on all those new HDLRSs. And one thing should be clear: anybody that owns an Epic and all its accessories has no business opining on Scarlet. They are clearly at another level that has nothing to do for the people at the lower end.

 

[Imran Farouk]

Hope you don't refer to my post. Because I don't see it that way.
I guess that one post Jim made makes people hold on to it and twist it. I think it's not only smart business-wise but great for us
because of "the DRAGON deal" we get from it. And I don't know what people would think the EPIC-S would be made from

Haha no not really referring to your post but rather all the other posts I've seen around about the idea that its made from junk or left overs from the EPIC, rejects even...

 

[Arnold F.]

Yeah, I think he needs to be kicked off the board for saying ANYTHING even remotely negative about RED. Let's Tali-BAN him!

Kyle...

I completely understand you and in some way support your frustrations, as I wanted the Fixed SCARLET real bad too... You fill betrayed I get it, I do to, and believe me so does Jim...

NO ONE HAS WON HERE, we all LOST a great camera form coming to market... AT list for now.

However, when you start getting a tone of accusing a respectable company like RED, of recycling unused parts to make something up last minute, well, this is not right,
and I stop supporting you and or listening to you at this very moment, I suggest an adjustment in the tone spoken here, and the discussion might go much further, or I see this getting to an insult to an other.


Discussions and frustrations need to be expressed in always a respectful and civil matter, your is neither... Just saying... This is not the right way to be heard, while in some one else's home.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Core question is about accountability.

Why hold a Scarlet event, and release a Scarlet named camera, when the camera is in fact an Epic-S? All according last known configurations...

It would have been better to pull the "everything changes" handle at the time of Scarlet Fixed's actual demise.

I think all this heartbreak pains Jim a lot. A whole lot. But a bit of it is self inflicted. I guess he was simply too proud to make all the mockers right in that Scarlet was "impossible". For the longest time it seemed possible.

RED now has a two tier Epic setup where the entry point, shooting ready is $15.000 (realistically $20.000+), which means that both cameras cater to the same crowd. That some individuals are taking loans to finance a camera-for-rent that will flood the market doesn't change that fact.

I'd say this whole thing has very little to with with the actual Scarlet X, or sensor size, or Canon or any of that...

 

[Kyle Presley]

I was an ardent RED Fanboy for several years. I was an evangelist for RED and stood up for it when people wanted to attack what Red was doing. What RED did on November 3rd was to maraud a huge and loyal following. I still love RED, but I've gotta give 'em some tough love right now, even if it seems insulting. Sometimes the truth hurts, especially when it comes from an ally. If you don't believe that I have been a RED ally, check out Scarletuser. I had been a major contributor there for years. Here on REDuser too. This is a message RED needs to hear. Some have said that the title of this thread is "doing me no favors." However, this is a filmmaking forum. "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining," is a famous quote from one of my favorite movies, The Outlaw Josey Wales. I thought it was very appropriate, and not so inflammatory if you consider the context. If I am to be an outlaw, it is because I believe my and many's loyalty has been betrayed. Red's motto about "change" cannot be taken as a blanket statement to cover them so that they do not have to honor their word, especially on something as overhyped and non existent Scarlet now is. Scarletuser was formed by Jarred and was a place for poor, broke blokes like me to come and anticipate a revolutionary camera, Scarlet. Not this new-fangled Scarlet-X. If you want some perspective about my argument here, check out www.scarletuser.com. Then I may not seem like such a crank.

 

[Kyle Presley]

Core question is about accountability.

Why hold a Scarlet event, and release a Scarlet named camera, when the camera is in fact an Epic-S? All according last known configurations...

It would have been better to pull the "everything changes" handle at the time of Scarlet Fixed's actual demise.

I think all this heartbreak pains Jim a lot. A whole lot. But a bit of it is self inflicted. I guess he was simply too proud to make all the mockers right in that Scarlet was "impossible". For the longest time it seemed possible.

RED now has a two tier Epic setup where the entry point, shooting ready is $15.000 (realistically $20.000+), which means that both cameras cater to the same crowd. That some individuals are taking loans to finance a camera-for-rent that will flood the market doesn't change that fact.

I'd say this whole thing has very little to with with the actual Scarlet X, or sensor size, or Canon or any of that...

This is exactly correct. Thanks for saying what I had a hard time saying. Forgive the pun, but I can only see red right now, and it makes it difficult to be as concise as you have been. Thanks.