Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

[John Byrne]

I think Kyle deserves credit for manning up and speaking his mind. Isn't that kinda the RED credo anyway. Have some balls?!? I've been drinking the RED Koolaide just like everybody else, and for me, $6k was a lot, especially in this economy. I was excited that RED was going to have a monitor, body, grip, etc., all for that price. Now it is more like $15K. David is right about renting: no chance for me where I live. The 2/3" was not appealing to me. The $6K price was. Knowing I can get an Epic-like machine for $15K is enticing, but shit, I'm not so sure I can use that kind of firepower. How many here need or want 2-3 cameras on a shot, minimum? Me! I was wanting a RED A camera, and then was going w/other consumer grade NEX types as Bs. The $9K brain, $15K package, or more like $23K reality for an 'A' camera is great if I'm Peter Jackson, but I'm not. I'm just some loser from nowhere. So, how many people here were hoping they could have a RED solution for like $10-$12K total? I think that RED's right to change at will is anyone's right, but Kyle's right to rant is his too. I give hi credit for standing up to a forum filled with a lot of loyal sheep. I'm one of them, but I still have a brain, even if it is heavily medicated.

 

[drew sandoval]

Scarlet-X is not Scarlet. Since 2008 Scarlet has been a modular camera in two well known flavors: Fixed and Interchangeable. They were touted at 3K, 120 fps, and with HDRx at 60 fps. All for a price "around $6K," according to Ted Schilowitz who said this many many times.

What Red is calling Scarlet-X shoots 4K at 30 fps, 3K at 48 fps, etc. With an S35 sensor. The best part, it costs about $14,000. Wow...

Yeah Kyle, I gotta agree with you. The thing I was most looking forward to with Scarlet was that we could finally shoot 120fps HD for under $10k. I wasn't worried about sensor size or doing 4k, it was merely 120fps at 1080p quality, not 720p or 1k. For that I am very disapointed.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Plus the fact that if James Cameron gets his way and 48 or even 60 fps becomes the 3D standard, Scarlet-X won't be able to handle 3D at the higher rate at 3K even without HDRx. Something to consider if you were planning to do 3D with your rig.

If, if. I doubt there won't still be 'if'(s) of that kind later as same as today.

Vittorio Storaro has had another one: 2:1 Jim's too BTW.
Do you still believe both will see it without a series of 'if'(s) midway, that is, if both visionaries will ever see it anyway?
Jim, for instance, had seen a 2/3" camcorder first for 2K-3K that ended up for 3x/4x in the end of the road a few years later (E

 

[Robert Jackson]

I like the "new" Scarlet X. I may put my order in this week.
But yeah, I'm a little confused why they decided to kill the 2/3" Interchangeable since it has no fixed lens terminal issues. I like the deeper depth of field of 2/3" for some projects. And I bought about 4 additional lenses since I thought it was a sure thing.

Well, not only that, but the "secret sauce" in a lot of great films is use of extreme telephoto and with a smaller sensor you can get that kind of telephoto compression with much smaller, lighter and less expensive lenses. It's way easier to shoot the Right Stuff/Wild Bunch "endless walk" on a 16mm-ish rig than on S35.

 

[Ralph Wong]

I will vent my support for Kyle on this one.

Let's get two things straight:

1. The new Scarlet-X at its current price point blows all of its competitors away. That Canon 300 they just announced looks like it will be DOA at a $20,000 price point (What were they thinking). Out of all the companies out there, RED has been one of the most responsive to their customers, I appreciate them for that. However...

2. The new Scarlet-X is not even close to the camera we were sold on in the past. When people say that other camera companies do not tell you about future releases in advanced so we should give RED a pass, I point to the HVX by Panasonic. I remember hearing about specs and what the camera was going to be able to do months before it came out. Then I saw footage and was disappointed. With RED it is the opposite. The footage looks great, but when I saw the price point, I was REALLY disappointed. So I was disappointed with Panasonic, now I am disappointed with RED. I think it is a perfectly natural and justifiable reaction for people who had been waiting so long for their dream camera to come out at an affordable price. The funny thing is that the only time I was not disappointed with a camera purchase was when the RED one came out. It delivered essentially everything they promised. Due to financial reasons, I had to sell it which is why I was so stoked when they announced a lower end camera at a lower price point. I understand that they say "everything changes", but that's beginning to feel like a cop out now. It almost gives the company a license to say anything then reverse themselves and justify it. In the end, I believe people are angry because they (like myself) were pinning their hopes on this new camera as an affordable option for those of us who do not have as much money to spend and had those hopes dashed without warning. It's kind of like waiting to buy an electric car because a car company promises to release one in the next couple of years for $20,000 then releases it and jacks up the price to $50,000. As soon as RED knew that they were going to scrap the 2/3 Scarlet, they should have let us know so that we could pursue other avenues. If they had just said, "We tried this route and found it wasn't going to work," instead of continuing to lead us to believe the 2/3 was still in the mix, I think most people would have been more understanding. I still believe that RED is the best option for all those who can afford it. I still think RED is the best company out there in terms of listening to their customers. I just feel that they didn't handle this release very well, and I hope they learn from this experience going forward. Because let's be perfectly honest. If RED had announced a 2/3 Scarlet with the specs and price they sold us on three days ago, few would be complaining. I know I would have been ecstatic.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Dear Robert,

you as the usual guys on here,

stop to complain, buy the X S35 4K motion camera, crop it to your favorite 2/3" mode and go ahead with your work.

That said, everyone can be happy!

E

 

[Eric Lange]

I’ve read through all of the posts.

What’s the point of all this?

It doesn’t achieve anything.

I mean I REALLY need a 645 system (consequently I am doing something else).

I REALLY need that 120K massive sensor that Jim showed years ago with the Rodenstock lens on it.

But I didn’t start a sub forum for a 645 and camp out on RED’s doorstep for a few years.

I have to do other things because the things shown (years) ago are not available.


I don’t hold RED accountable to my wish list or particular needs.

It’s by pure fluke that the Scarlet X answers our requirements way beyond anything we could have dared hoped for; and originally Scarlet was not even on our RADAR.

There are winners and looser in this and I have to say (our group IS really going to benefit from this). Sorry that some won’t.

That’s life.

I haven’t bought accessories for a camera that may or may not come to exist?

But the thing is the folks that feel betrayed did not put mucho $$$$$$$$$’s into the R&D and did not take huge risks in trying to develop such a system.

It’s not like some of you guys handed over millions of dollars and expected Jim to build the camera that you wanted.

You learn from your mistakes and then you get on with it.

E

 

[Robert Jackson]

Dear Robert,

you as the usual guys on here,

stop to complain, buy the X S35 4K motion camera, crop it to your favorite 2/3" mode and go ahead with your work.

That said, everyone can be happy!

E

Just around 2K...you know, I've heard that 2K cameras aren't "future proof"...

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

I’ve read through all of the posts.

What’s the point of all this?

It doesn’t achieve anything.

I mean I REALLY need a 645 system (consequently I am doing something else).

I REALLY need that 120K massive sensor that Jim showed years ago with the Rodenstock lens on it.

But I didn’t start a sub forum for a 645 and camp out on RED’s doorstep for a few years.

I have to do other things because the things shown (years) ago are not available.


I don’t hold RED accountable to my wish list or particular needs.

It’s by pure fluke that the Scarlet X answers our requirements way beyond anything we could have dared hoped for; and originally Scarlet was not even on our RADAR.

There are winners and looser in this and I have to say (our group IS really going to benefit from this). Sorry that some won’t.

That’s life.

I haven’t bought accessories for a camera that may or may not come to exist?

But the thing is the folks that feel betrayed did not put mucho $$$$$$$$$’s into the R&D and did not take huge risks in trying to develop such a system.

It’s not like some of you guys handed over millions of dollars and expected Jim to build the camera that you wanted.

You learn from your mistakes and then you get on with it.

E

Been my point all along... No reason to complain. They took the risk and it didn't work.

 

[John Byrne]

The 'point' is that Kyle voiced frustration after having bought into the dream, and while Scarlet is a rocket, it may be a tad more money than what many of us had been expecting, and that if we all had the courage to voice our dismay at that fact, then maybe the powers that be will not forget that the $3K for 3K vision was not ours, but theirs, and that our expectations or wishes were based, not on our 'wish list or particular needs' but on what was presented to us here, as modern-day PR/advertising.....

I’ve read through all of the posts.

What’s the point of all this?

It doesn’t achieve anything.

I mean I REALLY need a 645 system (consequently I am doing something else).

I REALLY need that 120K massive sensor that Jim showed years ago with the Rodenstock lens on it.

But I didn’t start a sub forum for a 645 and camp out on RED’s doorstep for a few years.

I have to do other things because the things shown (years) ago are not available.


I don’t hold RED accountable to my wish list or particular needs.

It’s by pure fluke that the Scarlet X answers our requirements way beyond anything we could have dared hoped for; and originally Scarlet was not even on our RADAR.

There are winners and looser in this and I have to say (our group IS really going to benefit from this). Sorry that some won’t.

That’s life.

I haven’t bought accessories for a camera that may or may not come to exist?

But the thing is the folks that feel betrayed did not put mucho $$$$$$$$$’s into the R&D and did not take huge risks in trying to develop such a system.

It’s not like some of you guys handed over millions of dollars and expected Jim to build the camera that you wanted.

You learn from your mistakes and then you get on with it.

E

 

[Emanuel A.]

(...)

I point to the HVX by Panasonic. I remember hearing about specs and what the camera was going to be able to do months before it came out. Then I saw footage and was disappointed. With RED it is the opposite. The footage looks great, but when I saw the price point, I was REALLY disappointed. So I was disappointed with Panasonic, now I am disappointed with RED. I think it is a perfectly natural and justifiable reaction for people who had been waiting so long for their dream camera to come out at an affordable price. The funny thing is that the only time I was not disappointed with a camera purchase was when the RED one came out. It delivered essentially everything they promised. Due to financial reasons, I had to sell it which is why I was so stoked when they announced a lower end camera at a lower price point. I understand that they say "everything changes", but that's beginning to feel like a cop out now. It almost gives the company a license to say anything then reverse themselves and justify it. In the end, I believe people are angry because they (like myself) were pinning their hopes on this new camera as an affordable option for those of us who do not have as much money to spend and had those hopes dashed without warning. It's kind of like waiting to buy an electric car because a car company promises to release one in the next couple of years for $20,000 then releases it and jacks up the price to $50,000. As soon as RED knew that they were going to scrap the 2/3 Scarlet, they should have let us know so that we could pursue other avenues. If they had just said, "We tried this route and found it wasn't going to work," instead of continuing to lead us to believe the 2/3 was still in the mix, I think most people would have been more understanding. I still believe that RED is the best option for all those who can afford it. I still think RED is the best company out there in terms of listening to their customers. (...)

Right. Agreed on the first part. On the 2nd part, we were all warned about no more same open policy, the announcement of price increase was also very explicit and against the marketing vibe (I even thought to my own, this guy "Jannard" or whoever is posting here LOL is naive )

The only protest I haven't read here and we could all do is...

...where is my 3K 120fps? (where's the evil grin smiley after all? )

 

[John Byrne]

I may have only made 28 posts here, but I have been a member of this form for over three years. I am a big fan. I am not complaining. I am giving Kyle credit for having more balls than me. I may buy the Scarlet. I may wait. I dunno. But I still think that freedom of expression and protest are tenets of our culture that should not be smashed out of blind loyalty to the Gods.

 

[drew sandoval]

I really feel bad for the people who can only afford a 3-8k camera. I used to be one of them. I couldnt even afford a 5D. Red clearly promised them a camera.

Mohamed, you're totally right here. The Scarlet was supposed to be the next step from the 5d or 7d to a true profesional motion picture camera, with all the RAW data, high HD frame rates, and awesomecolor grading action that comes with it. Maybe it wouldn't be 4k, or wouldn't quite have the data rates, but it would have greatly expanded the tools that my user branch (the3-8k people) had to play with. We are now left with the same h264 codecs, 8bit data, and only 24 or 30p fps we have had for the last 3 years. That is why we are all disapointed.

 

[Felix K.]

Maybe Scarlet Fixed was too powerful and they were afraid of cutting into Epic-S (now Scarlet-X) sales. I should have been more suspicious when Joseph bought an Epic.

 

[Emanuel A.]

I may have only made 28 posts here, but I have been a member of this form for over three years. I am a big fan. I am not complaining. I am giving Kyle credit for having more balls than me. I may buy the Scarlet. I may wait. I dunno. But I still think that freedom of expression and protest are tenets of our culture that should not be smashed out of blind loyalty to the Gods.

Indeed. And you in 2 years didn't beat my record of today LOL ;-) Nobody here is saying differently, all of us think the same, Jim included I bet

Discussing POVxx is also a mature attitude. :smiley:

 

[Paul Ellington]

In a single word, business. In two? Success.

Religion... 5 and 4 K better that than a deity. Mom died when I was 26 dad at 7, Mom drowned in her sleep from MS, father from Cancer... My Epic, has only given me inspiration not questioned humanity. I know something very human built and created this, I'm in the tank for RED, sorry... have to be honest.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Maybe Scarlet Fixed was too powerful and they were afraid of cutting into Epic-S (now Scarlet-X) sales. I should have been more suspicious when Joseph bought an Epic.

Oh Felix,

Don't go there on that way! This has nothing to do with it. Any economist would confirm it. When all of them are asking the same, betting in the same, you'll put your money in the wrong side on the loser horse...?

 

[J Davis]

I feel confident in saying that everybody is amazed and congratulatory about the specs/prices on the cameras released
and
that the upsets being voiced are directly related to what I call ... REDhype

 

[Steve Doll]

Not going to defend or bash RED. It is their company and product line, they can do what makes sense for them.

I too wished for a small, RAW and powerful camera. Something to take on DSLR and other low end cameras like the FS100. I don't need something that can match the resolution of an EPIC as a B camera. The step to SSD-only really kills most of us in that area. $1k for a 64GB card. $200 for a battery.

In the end, they didn't think it was good enough for cinema. That is true, but most of us at this end won't be producing anything higher than BluRay or HD web formats. 2k 120fps at RAW was something I was hoping would come out of all of this. Not even the Scarlet-X can do that.

Tis life I guess. RED couldn't get it to work for them or something so they took the quickest path: scrapped EPIC chips and EPIC housings with a different paint job.

I am still impressed with RED products and hopefully next year when their factory is running full steam they can revisit the original Scarlet dream.

 

[George Butterfield]

I absolutely will take it out on a public forum. And I will also take the heat. I have modified my OP so that it is not so inflammatory. This forum is my voice. RED needs some tough love right now. And that's the way I feel about it. Still love them, but RED does need to be called out on this.

Kyle, you don't have a leg to stand on. RED has always been perfectly up front with their business decisions. Take a step back, look at what RED is trying to do and at what it has done in an extremely short time. What would you be shooting right now if RED hadn't revolutionized the industry.? Go get that Camera and show us some pictures.