Does anyone ever use Audio recorded in camera?

[Elsie N]

On the other hand: for normal scripted shoots with the camera on a tripod, crane, or dolly (like 97% of most filmmaking), I find the lens and mounts are often larger than the camera, even an Alexa. You gotta wonder how Arri gets along and not only survives, but prospers while offering full-size XLRs and very easily-accessible timecode inputs and outputs. Just sayin'.


Well, the Red One used TA3 mini-XLR connectors, which were about $5 apiece. Those I think are better than the 5 cent stereo 3.5mm connectors on the Epic.

I fear not only are the new 4K cameras coming out going to allow users to have their cake and eat it, too, they're going to eat Red's lunch if Red is not careful.

I personally do not think someone is going to choose a camera based on its sound connectors. It's my belief most cameras are chosen for their pictures.

I would rather have even a mute Dragon (which makes the point moot when shooting varispeed '-) than any of the other camera options out there.

 

[ericyoung]

Thanks all for the responses! ...

Eric, could you please post an image and wiring diagram if available? How do you mount it and how do you keep the 3.5mm connection secure?
…

To be honest, I was just trying to save money as finances were super tight at the time after buying the camera. Buying all the little accessories was adding up in a big way which was why making my own made sense.

But factoring in all the time & effort sourcing all the parts, the measuring up, labour, testing etc, I would just rather buy something like the W0oden Camera A-Box and be done with it normally.
The plastic box I used saved a bit of weight, but mounting/unmounting involves taking the box lid off (four screws) to access the two 1/4"-20 bolts into a W0oden Camera rear side plate - so not particularly convenient.

Wiring was just following the pinouts provided in the Epic user manual appendices. I used high quality low profile right angle Neutrik 3.5mm connectors (same as A-Box) and flexible star quad mic cable.

I could have routed the cables through the W0oden Camera riser plate which has cut outs and channelling for such cables to keep it super neat, but I wanted to be able to remove the box and cables easily without unmounting the camera and dismantling the riser plate, so just routed them carefully round the side. I made them just the right length that they don't stick out enough to get caught easily (I left a little cable slack wound up inside the box to allow easy repair or to move the box further away or to other locations if necessary).

 

[Marc Wielage]

I personally do not think someone is going to choose a camera based on its sound connectors. It's my belief most cameras are chosen for their pictures.

Perhaps, but some users will pick a camera that's $30,000 cheaper.

 

[Elsie N]

Perhaps, but some users will pick a camera that's $30,000 cheaper.

True, but not because it has XLRs, but because it is $30,000 cheaper. '-)

 

[Rob Castiglione]

The Pro i/o makes no discernible difference to quality. I have used it and in my opinion it actually detracts from your ability to record decent audio because of the onboard fan which makes recording indoors virtually impossible.

As far as I recall the Pro i/o does not actually have a different mic preamp - it just provides the basic industry standard inputs.

I have no idea why Red does not make a simple module which has proper XLR inputs. This has been suggested many many times by Red users.

Best solution to the XLR problem: Action Products .

 

[Marc Wielage]

True, but not because it has XLRs, but because it is $30,000 cheaper. '-)

I could swear I just said the same thing.

 

[Elsie N]

I could swear I just said the same thing.

In that case, :cheers2:

 

[AndreasOberg]

One thing I don't really understand when you are using the on board audio are your channels really enough? You only have 2?
Most of the time I would want 1 lavalier or 2, and then I would normally want a stereo recording so now we are up to 4 channels.
Or do you just have a stereo mic or maybe a mono mic on and mix it with a room tone done in stereo?
Just curious how you guys do it since its nice to be able to run with fever people sometimes.
/Andreas

 

[Elsie N]

I don't have a photo, but my solution is to mount a TASCAM DR-60 on a Noga arm and run a cable from camera out to mic one on the camera. This gives me an on-camera recording connection to the sound on the TASCAM.

I use camera mic two for another mic, exclusively recorded to camera. Of course I am running two mono XLR mics (Left/Right) on the TASCAM. The DR-60 allows for mid-side recording and I plan on using that setup when I want ambient sound to manipulate along with the cardioid or super cardioid placed as the mid mic.

I use a figure 8 pattern for the side mic.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I don't have a photo, but my solution is to mount a TASCAM DR-60 on a Noga arm and run a cable from camera out to mic one on the camera. This gives me an on-camera recording connection to the sound on the TASCAM.

But no timecode on the DR-60 (which is a $200 recorder), and it's not going to stay synced over a long period of time. It's a toy recorder at best. Tascam does make good recorders for film use, but this is not one of them. It's basically a dictation recorder or one you could use for (cameraless) interviews, not for making scripted films or documentaries.

 

[Elsie N]

But no timecode on the DR-60 (which is a $200 recorder), and it's not going to stay synced over a long period of time. It's a toy recorder at best. Tascam does make good recorders for film use, but this is not one of them. It's basically a dictation recorder or one you could use for (cameraless) interviews, not for making scripted films or documentaries.

But it has XLRs, so it has to be great! '-)

 

[Matt Bass]

I just did in camera sound for a short documentary with my EPIC.

To be honest I have been completely against this and have used a sound person every shoot before this, but this shoot only required a handful of interviews and on camera shot gun was fine for all the B roll that was going to be covered with music.

After some testing I ended up using a x A box with a Sanken cs1 shotgun (with phantom power) and a Lectro 411 with sanken lav. The wireless mic required some dancing around the audio parameters but the sound ended up sounding pretty darn good!!!

Note: Changing the audio parameters during some of the interviews was tricky because when you go into the audio menu while your recording the whole image is covered and you cannot see the image! I would love if RED could make the audio menu transparent during recording! Also changing the sound during recording is very tricky because you can hear the change in DB so I would change the DB in between sentences - which can be tricky!

 

[Marc Wielage]

Changing the audio parameters during some of the interviews was tricky because when you go into the audio menu while your recording the whole image is covered and you cannot see the image! I would love if RED could make the audio menu transparent during recording! Also changing the sound during recording is very tricky because you can hear the change in DB so I would change the DB in between sentences - which can be tricky!

Ah... but if you just hired a sound mixer to do this with an external console and recorder, it's easily done. And the sound mixer would ride the level throughout the entire interview. Sad that this wasn't done.

 

[Elsie N]

Ah... but if you just hired a sound mixer to do this with an external console and recorder, it's easily done. And the sound mixer would ride the level throughout the entire interview. Sad that this wasn't done.

Marc, I think it's time for you to put a disclaimer at the end of your sound posts stating that you are a sound guy for hire and your posts may be blatantly done for the sole purpose of defending relevance. '-)

 

[AndreasOberg]

Ah... but if you just hired a sound mixer to do this with an external console and recorder, it's easily done. And the sound mixer would ride the level throughout the entire interview. Sad that this wasn't done.

Marc I just want to say that I really appreciate pro sound people and I don't think anyone here is planning on replacing proper sound people for serious work.
However sometimes its just you and your camera and then its great to know that you can get decent audio with more simpler means.
/Andreas

 

[Marc Wielage]

Marc, I think it's time for you to put a disclaimer at the end of your sound posts stating that you are a sound guy for hire and your posts may be blatantly done for the sole purpose of defending relevance. '-)

Actually, I'm doing much more post supervision and color-correction these days. But either way, I still speak the truth, albeit from my perspective. I'd rather have somebody with a decent set of ears and hands on the knobs than assuming some poor camera operator can grope for a knob and find the meter and adjust the level. My experience is that the camera operator already has far too much to worry about without also worrying about sound levels. To not hire a sound guy is just cheap and short-sided, in my opinion. And when we have to fix it in post, you wind up paying for the mistake there.

Marc I just want to say that I really appreciate pro sound people and I don't think anyone here is planning on replacing proper sound people for serious work. However sometimes its just you and your camera and then its great to know that you can get decent audio with more simpler means.

Silly me. I think anything worth doing is worth doing well, and I've worked on some pretty low-budget projects where we still found a way to afford a reasonable sound guy. Even a $20/hour guy standing there looking at meters and turning knobs on a little mixer in a bag is better than nothing. Guaranteed, there are people who will work for $250-$300 a day if they're not carrying a recorder and you're just recording one or two people in front of a camera.

My observation is that there are far, far too many people on this group jump into production with the idea being that a) they have to do everything themselves and b) they have unrealistic expectations as to what they can achieve with no money. I think the answer is: 1) hire people who are better at their jobs than you are, and 2) find a way to get more money to make your project better. Otherwise... you gotta live with the compromises. (In this case, bad sound that will have to be fixed in post.)

 

[AndreasOberg]

everything themselves and b) they have unrealistic expectations as to what they can achieve with no money. I think the answer is: 1) hire people who are better at their jobs than you are, and 2) find a way to get more money to make your project better. Otherwise... you gotta live with the compromises. (In this case, bad sound that will have to be fixed in post.)

I think you are right. Get more money and get more people that are great at what they do. Much better than to compromise
/Andreas

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

As it happens, the noise level of the chosen location and mic placement are vastly more important than any residual noise in the camera's preamps.

Stephen

 

[Elsie N]

Actually, I'm doing much more post supervision and color-correction these days. But either way, I still speak the truth, albeit from my perspective. I'd rather have somebody with a decent set of ears and hands on the knobs than assuming some poor camera operator can grope for a knob and find the meter and adjust the level. My experience is that the camera operator already has far too much to worry about without also worrying about sound levels. To not hire a sound guy is just cheap and short-sided, in my opinion. And when we have to fix it in post, you wind up paying for the mistake there. Silly me. I think anything worth doing is worth doing well, and I've worked on some pretty low-budget projects where we still found a way to afford a reasonable sound guy. Even a $20/hour guy standing there looking at meters and turning knobs on a little mixer in a bag is better than nothing. Guaranteed, there are people who will work for $250-$300 a day if they're not carrying a recorder and you're just recording one or two people in front of a camera. My observation is that there are far, far too many people on this group jump into production with the idea being that a) they have to do everything themselves and b) they have unrealistic expectations as to what they can achieve with no money. I think the answer is: 1) hire people who are better at their jobs than you are, and 2) find a way to get more money to make your project better. Otherwise... you gotta live with the compromises. (In this case, bad sound that will have to be fixed in post.)

Some of us are more than just one-trick ponies that CAN manage both sound and video (when necessary.) And tweaking audio in post has been no big deal for quite a few years now. Just don't assume everyone can't function at a high level because they do not do things the way you have been taught and strictly adhere to.

 

[Marc Wielage]

As it happens, the noise level of the chosen location and mic placement are vastly more important than any residual noise in the camera's preamps.

That's true, though in truth, everything matters​ to some degree.

Some of us are more than just one-trick ponies that CAN manage both sound and video (when necessary.) And tweaking audio in post has been no big deal for quite a few years now. Just don't assume everyone can't function at a high level because they do not do things the way you have been taught and strictly adhere to.

I have great respect for re-recording mixers and sound editors who know how to get the most out of sound in post. But for that, you need a lot of skill and experience to do it right. And that does not include somebody sitting in a noisy room with a Final Cut Pro or Avid system, trying to do it on computer speakers -- which is how a lot of cable shows are done these days. A real mix, done in an actual dedicated room with full-range speakers, takes a lot of talent and money to pull off.

I would always, always rather hire a specialist who knows how to do his or her job better than I do. There's a lot of things I can do, too, but at some point you gotta know where to hold 'em, and know where to fold 'em. Don't assume you're good enough to do everything well. Almost none of us are Orson Welles (or Robert Rodriguez, for that matter). And even in the case of Robert, he still hires re-recording mixers, dialogue mixers, and colorists.