Do YOU want 6k??

[shashbugu]

Why Stop at 6k. Red should at this point in time releasing a 12k sensor to beat Sony. its 2012 not 2009. We were promised a 617 sensor right now. Absolutely no noise, no lighting needed, no DP needed, no sound mixer. What happened to technology, we digressed.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

The question is not one I can really answer...

I want better highlight performance and I hope to get that through the extra two stops.
Less noise will give better practical lowlightperformance I assume. WHich is a nice to have thingy in my book.
I hope the dragon won't push the epics processing capacity beyond its limits. What I really dig with the current epic is that it feels "not pushed".

More K's? I see more and more why I'd like a 4:3 sensor, for stills and other use.

Resolution hasn't really been an issue in the things I have seen with the Epic. That isn't to say that if the post processing capacity was rises equally I would in any way mind more resolution, just that that is not what I think of first...

 

[George Tsai]

I'm just waiting for the day Red cameras begins to rival IMAX quality

 

[Mark Toia]

I'm just waiting for the day Red cameras begins to rival IMAX quality

Don't they already

I have some IMAX scanned images on my computer... and when I put the RED EPIC images next to the IMAX scans, they are as clean and crisp. Maybe even better.

Not dissing IMAX and I looooooooove IMAX... But the EPIC with good glass is there already if you ask me.

But you only can really see the comparison when you view both on a 4k projector... or ZOOM up 400% on a 30 inche monitor..

 

[Robert L. Mickles]

I'm just waiting for the day Red cameras begins to rival IMAX quality

If you're talking about Digital IMAX, like at AMCs, then they already beat it when the RED ONE came out. They were planning to come out with a large format sensor. But I think within a few years we'll see red come out with something that will match or beat 70mm IMAX, and hopefully by then there will be a way to project that digitally.

To answer the poll, I'm very happy with the MX sensor. If they're going to come out with something better in general I'm in. The Dragon sounds very exciting to me.

As far as someone saying that they would never want a large format sensor, of course you're not going to use it constantly. The beauty of it is, that if its a 12K or 9K 465 sensor you can shoot the full sensor at that resolution or you can shoot the 35mm section at 4k-6K. Does my logic make sense there?

 

[George Tsai]

If you're talking about Digital IMAX, like at AMCs, then they already beat it when the RED ONE came out. They were planning to come out with a large format sensor. But I think within a few years we'll see red come out with something that will match or beat 70mm IMAX, and hopefully by then there will be a way to project that digitally.

hehe yea, i should clarify REAL IMAX, not the sellout IMAX hehehe Epic definietly has S35mm film in the can, eventually 70mm will be within grasp. There has been so many amazing images capture in the 70mm IMAX and even more amazing how people were able to shoot those images with the large camera (ie Super Speedway, mounting it on an Indy car is just suicidal!). One can only imagine the kinds of images you can get with a hopefully much smaller Red "IMAX" camera

 

[Adam Beck]

"210, 220, whatever it takes."

Nice!

 

[Antony Newman]

When the Dragon sensor is released, 18 Mpix photographs with 15+ stops of DR may be the tipping point for people to consider using the Red as a stills camera, and Red could be motivated to add a photo mode & time lapse features in the camera. Published photographs may bring yet more artists into the Red community, and more reason for Red to prioritise a low power mode. I vote for 6k based on this.

The c300 is said to improve the colour accuracy by treating a 'visible' pixel as 2xG +1B +1R. If the Dragon sensor has less noise per pixel than the Mysterium, and images from both were converted to 4k - would I be correct in believing that Dragon would produce images with better colour accuracy (at 4k).

Another thought. The BM sensor has a refrigeration unit on it to reduce the noise. If there is no space internally in the Red brain, could an external device be used to supercool the Dragon? (Ice Dragon?). Could using a temperature controlled loop remove the Black calibration step, or allow a higher Sensor frame rate? Could the Ice Dragon see in the dark?

Another thought - again from the c300. The c300 samples the sensor immediately after blanking. This value is subtracted at the end of the frame (eg 1/48th of sec) later - removing the fixed pattern noise ... and giving the film like grain at 20,000 ISO. I don't know how the Red read cycle works in this respect (ie don't know if this is already being done), what about a modified HDRx mode ... that reads the sensor for 1/16,000th of a second then again at 1/48th of a second. Could this mode be used - like the canon - to remove FPN on the Red, and allow noise to be removed in low light images?

AJ

 

[David Mullen ASC]

When the Dragon sensor is released, 18 Mpix photographs with 15+ stops of DR may be the tipping point for people to consider using the Red as a stills camera, and Red could be motivated to add a photo mode & time lapse features in the camera. Published photographs may bring yet more artists into the Red community, and more reason for Red to prioritise a low power mode. I vote for 6k based on this.

The c300 is said to improve the colour accuracy by treating a 'visible' pixel as 2xG +1B +1R. If the Dragon sensor has less noise per pixel than the Mysterium, and images from both were converted to 4k - would I be correct in believing that Dragon would produce images with better colour accuracy (at 4k).

Another thought. The BM sensor has a refrigeration unit on it to reduce the noise. If there is no space internally in the Red brain, could an external device be used to supercool the Dragon? (Ice Dragon?). Could using a temperature controlled loop remove the Black calibration step, or allow a higher Sensor frame rate? Could the Ice Dragon see in the dark?

Another thought - again from the c300. The c300 samples the sensor immediately after blanking. This value is subtracted at the end of the frame (eg 1/48th of sec) later - removing the fixed pattern noise ... and giving the film like grain at 20,000 ISO. I don't know how the Red read cycle works in this respect (ie don't know if this is already being done), what about a modified HDRx mode ... that reads the sensor for 1/16,000th of a second then again at 1/48th of a second. Could this mode be used - like the canon - to remove FPN on the Red, and allow noise to be removed in low light images?

AJ

Some of this sounds like patented technology, but keep in mind that Red's philosophy is all about RAW recording and leaving the image processing until post. Cameras like the Canon have a lot of tricks like you mention because they have to record an RGB image.

 

[Vino Harris]

I have to see the stats on the scarlet going to 6K because the cost of moving up only 1K is crazy. They said the Scarlet 4K is just likr the epic 4K but I can't see it. It looks like consumer video to me vs the beauty of the Epic. I know..you get what you pay for. I wish we had the option of ordering the camera without the photo option because I don't need to shoot stills and for the future I don't think they should follow the dslr format.

Last thing...I haven't seen a movie on the big screen shot with a Scarlet from hollywood but they have shot a movie using 8mm film...hmmmmm

 

[Rob Ruffo]

MIC / HPC computing is on the horizon for the desktop. Rocket EOL rapidly approaching I think. Intel's Knights Corner looks to be almost 400X faster for double-precision FP32 ops than an 8-core Xeon E5-2670 and will sell for roughly 1.75X the price. Out of the box it supports both x86 and OpenCL instructions / APIs. Engineering samples are shipping now, or will be any day now. Official release in November, I think. nVidia also showing something similar with their new Tesla cards, namely the K20 releasing later this year, but so far they're showing a complete inability to produce their new chips in quantity.

If all this tech has made its way to my clients' edit bays - which I have no control over at all - when Dragon ships, then I will be excited. Unfortunately, I doubt that will be the case as I look aroudn nwo and see many computers so old they have trouble with DNXHd at 1080p.

I have my doubts that human eyes, at normal viewing distances, can tell between 4K and 5K, let alone 6K (and yes, I know its debayered to a bit less) and I know fo no oen with a home 4K viewing device, so to me, who never shoots Imax blockbusters (and if I did could rent something for that special day) 6K is only an inconvenience with no real benefits, way past the point of diminishing returns.

So sorry for not agreeing with everyone.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

If all this tech has made its way to my clients' edit bays - which I have no control over at all - when Dragon ships, then I will be excited. Unfortunately, I doubt that will be the case as I look aroudn nwo and see many computers so old they have trouble with DNXHd at 1080p.

I have my doubts that human eyes, at normal viewing distances, can tell between 4K and 5K, let alone 6K (and yes, I know its debayered to a bit less) and I know fo no oen with a home 4K viewing device, so to me, who never shoots Imax blockbusters (and if I did could rent something for that special day) 6K is only an inconvenience with no real benefits, way past the point of diminishing returns.

So sorry for not agreeing with everyone.

If the question was:
What affects the viewing experience t most in todays cinemas, the 3D front and screens staying up at all times resolution, then my biggest concern is nt the resolution but the screening environment.

But given that the screening environment is half good and giving the audience the ability to actually see some of the dynamics and resolution we shoot, then those two factors come into a wider play...

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I have to see the stats on the scarlet going to 6K because the cost of moving up only 1K is crazy. They said the Scarlet 4K is just likr the epic 4K but I can't see it. It looks like consumer video to me vs the beauty of the Epic. I know..you get what you pay for. I wish we had the option of ordering the camera without the photo option because I don't need to shoot stills and for the future I don't think they should follow the dslr format.

Last thing...I haven't seen a movie on the big screen shot with a Scarlet from hollywood but they have shot a movie using 8mm film...hmmmmm

They use Epics. Why would they use an "Epic Lite?" Many Holywood films have been shot on Red One and Epic.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Scarlet = Red One MX with better compression, 0.5K Less of resolution, less frame rates. If people can shoot Hollywood Blockbusters with a Red One, they can surely do it with the same quality on a Scarlet. The Epic is an upgrade from both these cameras.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

They said the Scarlet 4K is just likr the epic 4K but I can't see it. It looks like consumer video to me vs the beauty of the Epic.

If true, and you are not just trolling, I think that would have more to do with who shot it and how it was shot/lit.

Last thing...I haven't seen a movie on the big screen shot with a Scarlet from hollywood but they have shot a movie using 8mm film...hmmmmm

Movies shot on Epic just started getting released recently. By this time next year I have no doubt you will be able to see Scarlet footage on the big screen.

 

[vincent kardasik]

I was really happy with 4K when shooting with the Red One and I didn't think I needed more resolution then came the Epic and now 90% of the stuff I'm shooting with this camera is 5K.
M-X was a big improvement compared to M so I'm sure Dragon will also be a big improvement compared to M-X.
Except people at Red, nobody knows if we will win sensitivity or faster frame rates but more resolution is always good.
In a month, it will be one year that I've received my Epic and we all know it's an amazing camera with tons of possibilities, like it or not.
How's that? I'm shooting action sports in 5K at 120fps, then when finishing in 2K or 1080p, I've got so much room with the footage that I can easily re-frame, pan or zoom into it? I've seen photographers working with me for years and I was so jealous about the fact they were cropping into frames, pushing the grade, etc... Now, we can do exactly the same thing with our cameras and in high-speed!
So yeah, if Dragon gives more room to play with the footage, bring it on! I definitely want it!

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

Oversampling whatever K to 4K for delivery is great in my book. Couple that with better DR and color reproduction, and it's only up to the guy's craft and talent. In the next Epic or additional processing module Red maybe could implement internal debayering machine of some kind. Then you'll be able to shoot with 6K/8K/12K camera and get pristine 4K or 5K (if you want some reframing in post) r3d files on SSD. I don't know if I make any sense right now, just a thought. For the next couple years Dragon will sure be on top of the game and ahead of everyone else.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I need and want more resolution for more then one reason... But if people are not willing to invest also in Post tools, then I can see how they get frustrated.


More to it.


When I went form Film to Digital in Photography, I had a 10MP camera, then when I went up to 21MP camera I saw a need of more horse power in my computer system to deal with the load, I made a sensible investment and went up a notch in my Desktop set up, and then...


I went over to Medium Format cameras with up to 80MP and files as heavy as 300MG each, now load several hundreds of Photos per Job, and you find yourself needing a Much bigger DeskTop station then you could ever had anticipated.

But do you see the difference in the image quality and the print size you can now afford? Shit you can!!


Well, I see the same thing here form the original R1 4k to the Now Epic 5k, and future 6K Dragon, or better yet 9K Epic 645, I'll be ready, those that wan't will see the need of serious upgrades needed in their workstation, those that don't think of Post while acquiring a new Camera, or Sensor, well, no offense, but they simply have no clue what they are doing...

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Scarlet = Red One MX with better compression, 0.5K Less of resolution, less frame rates. If people can shoot Hollywood Blockbusters with a Red One, they can surely do it with the same quality on a Scarlet. The Epic is an upgrade from both these cameras.

Sure, but why would they? Epic is available now, and the cost difference for rental is nominal on a big shoot. scarlet has no added benefits over an Epic.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I need and want more resolution for more then one reason... But if people are not willing to invest also in Post tools, then I can see how they get frustrated.


More to it.


When I went form Film to Digital in Photography, I had a 10MP camera, then when I went up to 21MP camera I saw a need of more horse power in my computer system to deal with the load, I made a sensible investment and went up a notch in my Desktop set up, and then...


I went over to Medium Format cameras with up to 80MP and files as heavy as 300MG each, now load several hundreds of Photos per Job, and you find yourself needing a Much bigger DeskTop station then you could ever had anticipated.

But do you see the difference in the image quality and the print size you can now afford? Shit you can!!


Well, I see the same thing here form the original R1 4k to the Now Epic 5k, and future 6K Dragon, or better yet 9K Epic 645, I'll be ready, those that wan't will see the need of serious upgrades needed in their workstation, those that don't think of Post while acquiring a new Camera, or Sensor, well, no offense, but they simply have no clue what they are doing...

It's not me who is not willing to invest (although i don't like spending money either) it's some of the people I hand in footage to. I don't do only indy features where I am wearing all hats and control everything. I would like MORE people to want me to shoot with my Epic, not fewer because, rightly or wrongly, it will be perceived as even more of a "post-choker" at 6K.

Many, many Epic owners get asked to shoot Alexa and others all the time not because they are better but because "post is easier". We loose a lot of gigs for our cams to that. Now you want to make it even MORE of a perceived problem? For some, as of yet, with all respect to Jim, imaginary 4K market? Hmmm.

And again, no one gives a hoot about future-proofing a commercial. They really have no desire to still be running it in four years. Same for music videos, most corporates - a year from now no one will care about these productions.

I'll be a bit blunt here and hope that Jim and Jarred go out and talk to people in my end of the business. We are not Spiderman. We are not indy no-budget festival film makers either. Epics are everywhere on music videos and commercials, and these combined produce a LOT of days of shooting overall, even in areas that have no fiction production businesses to speak of, such as Boston. But, we are under-represented on Reduser, and looking at that Dragon poster and hearing all the talk of 4K mastering - we don't seem to always be important in Red's plans.