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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Do you shoot in 4k 16x9 or 4k 2:1?

4096 pixels (4K) is cropped from the full 4.5K active sensor, and 3840 pixels (4K HD) is cropped further -- so once you change to a slightly shorter focal length to restore / match the previous field of view, you have a little more depth of field. But seriously, it's not enough to lose sleep over... Of course, you're not likely to be switching between 4K mode and 4K HD mode, you'd pick one or the other for the whole project, other than for slow-motion shots made at lower resolutions like 3K or 2K.

If you are using a lens finder on set, you may need to get a special groundglass drawn up that matches the 3840 pixel area of the sensor (4096 is roughly Academy 35mm width.)
 
I would love to be able to shoot shoot 16:9 with Quad HD 2.4 guides, for later cropping into Quad HD while retaining room for more stabilization options.

Either that or for a more simple post, shoot Quad HD with all that look around, using 1080 safe area and 2.4 guides, a long production schedule, excellent support, and most importantly a good DP and Camera Op.
 
4k HD... what about over-cranking?

4k HD... what about over-cranking?

Until now we have worked with footage at 4k 16:9 or 2:1. We are considering requesting footage in 4k HD but I have a few questions. Not being able to run a live test at the moment...

A lot of our jobs are a mixture of resolutions due to over cranking. We get 4k, 3k and 2k all on the same project a lot of times. We run everything through Redcine (crimson workflow) after cutting with proxy files and we almost always transcode to 1080 dpx unless larger plates are required.

At full debayer quality and detail/OLPF controls in play in Redcine, is there still a sharpness benefit to shooting 4k HD over 16:9? What happens if the camera gets over cranked to say 60 fps? Does it switch to 16:9 by default since there are no 3k or 2k "HD" resolutions?

In other words, if were going the Redcine route, and we often times have a mixed bag of frame sizes, is the workflow better to keep it all at 16:9?

Thanks in advance.
 
Well, the camera doesn't automatically switch resolutions when you overcrank - rather, you decide the speed you want to shoot at and then select (typically) the highest resolution mode that will support that speed.

Depending on your ratio for output, at 2K you may well need to be shooting 16:9 (as it's so close to 1080p in resolution). I often shoot 3K stuff in 2:1 for the extra fps available, even when a show is finishing 16:9, as a center-crop from 3K 2:1 will look better than a 2K 16:9 shot.

Ultimately, as long as you can extract the correct frame without loosing width from your 2K material (if any), then above and beyond that the capture format is pretty irrelevant, as long as the shots are framed correctly by the operator and a framing chart has been shot so that post know what is going on!

As for sharpness in 4K HD mode, yes, you will see a small benefit over 4K 16:9 originated material if (and only if) you are finishing 1080...

Cheers,
Dom.
 
Wow, great thread. I have been reading for the past 3 hrs trying to get a handle on the balance of what I want to do.

I realize there can be very technical answers discussing fractions and decimals but I am looking for a basic answer. Many answers point out neglidgable difference which are just confusing my already tired brain. A laymans answer would be appreciated.

I will be doing post on a 3gz quad core PC, 8 Gigs Ram, with Adobe.

To weigh on the conserative side for speed of post and storage room would I shoot 4K HD or 4K 2:1?

Broadcast mainly for 1080p but would also like to hit the festival circut.

I think from what I understand if the main broadcast forum is 1080p then 4K would be the simplist way to go in terms of post speed. Also sharper picture.

(I will answer my own question and see how close I am:
--shoot 4k HD to go to 1080P with in camera guides for 2.40 for film out.--
--4K HD is a better pic than 4K 2:1 and post time doesn't increase that much--
--if majority of broadcast was film out then 4K 2:1 would be the low budget version if 4K 16:9 is the high budget (considering post time and storage)--


(In the future, when budgets allow I will definitely shoot 4K 16:9)
 
Help me understand

Help me understand

I am having trouble with the math and need help understanding.

If HD is 1920x1080
and 4k HD is 3840x2160

That is only 2x HD, not 4x.

Can someone help me understand why the math is only 2x but lot's of people are referring to it as being 4x?


jimhare said:
Hey Jason,

16x9 on Red isn't exactly 4 x 1080. 4KHD is exactly 4 times, making the calculations easier and the downresing sharper as it doesn't have to make up pixels.
Click to expand...
 
eric a wahl said:
I am having trouble with the math and need help understanding.

If HD is 1920x1080
and 4k HD is 3840x2160

That is only 2x HD, not 4x.

Can someone help me understand why the math is only 2x but lot's of people are referring to it as being 4x?
Click to expand...

It's 4x the actual number of pixels.

3840x2160= 8 million+ pixels
1920x1080= 2 million+ pixels

8/2=4
 
Dominic Cochran said:
It's 4x the actual number of pixels.

3840x2160= 8 million+ pixels
1920x1080= 2 million+ pixels

8/2=4
Click to expand...

ding ding ding!

GRAND PRIZE WINNER! :hurray:

funny, I've heard some say it should be called "4XHD" ... why?

For most of the RED uninitiated ; 4KHD and 4K 16:9 = WTF?

I would love an explanation for shooting 4K 16:9. What is the application?
Film out? 4K projection? Thanks for explanation!

We shoot exclusively 4KHD ...

cheers and happy shooting
 
Since theaters are going to 4K digital projectors, wouldn't 4K 16x9 give us the most options? I mean, we shot our first film at 4K 2:1 (started back in 2008), and it works very nicely on 1080p screens (with just two slight bands at the top and bottom). It's always easy to convert 4K 16x9 into 1080p, so what's the issue here? What am I missing?

My personal preference is to shoot 4K 2:1 since I prefer that aspect ratio.

Stephen
 
Stephen Pruitt said:
Since theaters are going to 4K digital projectors, wouldn't 4K 16x9 give us the most options? I mean, we shot our first film at 4K 2:1 (started back in 2008), and it works very nicely on 1080p screens (with just two slight bands at the top and bottom). It's always easy to convert 4K 16x9 into 1080p, so what's the issue here? What am I missing?

My personal preference is to shoot 4K 2:1 since I prefer that aspect ratio.

Stephen
Click to expand...

As an exact multiple of a 1920 x 1080 4KHD shooting will transcode to 1920 x 1080 than 4K 16:9 shooting, as it is not an exact multiple.

This may make a huge difference to those not in a Red Rocket workflow, especially if they are on a very tight schedule.
 
With the recent suggestion by RED, is this post still relative? RED suggests you shoot in 2:1. Were using an MX so Im not sure if that was meant for Epic or MX or both.
 
Shoot in whatever mode you want. Jim's recent 2:1 thread was to say that he likes 2:1 and finds it to be a very good presentation format. I think many (most?) of us here are in agreement. I prefer 2:1 myself for delivery, but find that I tend to shoot 16:9 (or 1.89:1 on EPIC) more than 2:1 just to give myself a little more room to work in post. If I'm shooting for 16:9 HD delivery, my preferred shooting mode is 4KHD (quad-HD).
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Shoot in whatever mode you want. Jim's recent 2:1 thread was to say that he likes 2:1 and finds it to be a very good presentation format. I think many (most?) of us here are in agreement. I prefer 2:1 myself for delivery, but find that I tend to shoot 16:9 (or 1.89:1 on EPIC) more than 2:1 just to give myself a little more room to work in post. If I'm shooting for 16:9 HD delivery, my preferred shooting mode is 4KHD (quad-HD).
Click to expand...
Thanks Jeff. Ran into this issue when I was testing our shots in FCPX. Noticed that FCPX dont support 3840x2160 (forgot the REDCODE on this size). So I exported the R3D at 4096x2304 ProRes 444 since that was 1:1 scale up.
Any thoughts on doing this? Good or Bad Ill take it :)
 
Just one of many things FCPX doesn't support. Scaling up isn't really a good solution. If you shoot 4K 16:9 on the RED One, it's 4096x2304 to start with. 4KHD mode on the RED/EPIC is the 3840x2160 -- the fact that FCPX doesn't support that resolution natively just adds to the hilarity of the whole FCPX fiasco. If you feel you must continue down the FCP path at this time, I would recommend sticking with FCP7 and just transcoding your 4KHD straight across to 3840x2160 ProRes 4444, because it works in FCP7. Or scale down to 2K for use in either.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Just one of many things FCPX doesn't support. Scaling up isn't really a good solution. If you shoot 4K 16:9 on the RED One, it's 4096x2304 to start with. 4KHD mode on the RED/EPIC is the 3840x2160 -- the fact that FCPX doesn't support that resolution natively just adds to the hilarity of the whole FCPX fiasco. If you feel you must continue down the FCP path at this time, I would recommend sticking with FCP7 and just transcoding your 4KHD straight across to 3840x2160 ProRes 4444, because it works in FCP7. Or scale down to 2K for use in either.
Click to expand...
Thanks Jeff for the tips :) This might be all moot now. Just received our Resolve ;)
 
This is an awesome forum! No NOISE for once!!

Ok what is the recommended shooting mode for EPIC now if i am delivering to HDCAM or 1080P? IE 5K FF, 5K2:1, 4K HD? I usually convert all footage to AVID DNX-185X for finishing on an Avid symphony or now my resolve.

Also what are the compression rates people are shooting at for 1080P delivery? There are so many to use from on the EPIC.

And finally what compression rate is the minimum to shoot with EPIC on chroma key?
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
If I'm shooting for 16:9 HD delivery, my preferred shooting mode is 4KHD (quad-HD).
Click to expand...

I'm am not sure if it's been stated, but:

1. is 4KHD enabled on Epic?
2. What is the Epic max frame rate for 4KHD at say 5:1 or 8:1?
 
I tend to record 2:1 for 2.40 projects, 16:9 for 1.85 projects, and 4KHD mode for TV work. Don't know if 4KHD is enabled in Epic yet. Recording a bit more info top & bottom (such as when using 2:1 for 2.40 movies or 16:9 for 1.85 movies) isn't a bad idea in case you need to tweak headroom -- which is why I don't record 2:1 for 1.85 projects, I don't see the advantage of having side-to-side adjustability.
 
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