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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Do we have to thank RED for the birth of...

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Misha Engel

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BRAW?

BMD just dumped cDNG because of patent issues.

When RED was the company who filed this complaint, then here is a big thank you to RED from our side, BRAW is so much better than cDNG.
 
I agree, BRAW is truly amazing. And I don’t need to buy $8000 computers for every step of production. Even customers can view full res dailies without a powerful machine.

The RED patent is now officially dead because someone made something better.

Hoping RED can step up again but they’re getting eviscerated by a lot of folks to the point that my market for customers no longer wants RED on set. What a difference 6 months made.
 
Adam Brian Dada said:
I agree, BRAW is truly amazing. And I don’t need to buy $8000 computers for every step of production. Even customers can view full res dailies without a powerful machine.
Click to expand...

Yep, 4.6k in full res on a $1,500 laptop.

Adam Brian Dada said:
The RED patent is now officially dead because someone made something better.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's dead, it just got another backfire, first Sony (they have so many patents that they could potentially shut down the whole movie industry) and now BRAW. I still think R3D is pretty good, it's just really heavy on compute resources.

Adam Brian Dada said:
Hoping RED can step up again but they’re getting eviscerated by a lot of folks to the point that my market for customers no longer wants RED on set. What a difference 6 months made.
Click to expand...

The UMP G2 is also pretty amazing spec wise.
 
I'd be very curious as to which patent shut down Blackmagic's use of CinemaDNG. I thought that CinemaDNG was open-source, so you wonder whose toes got stepped on...

"There is one thing missing from the new camera entirely: CinemaDNG recording. “We’ve had a patent claim — someone is complaining that the DNG format that we’re using is infringing their patent,” Petty said, claiming that because the company didn’t invent CinemaDNG and isn’t familiar with the history of the format, Blackmagic is unsure about the validity of the claim. (Petty did not reveal the identity of the claimant.)"

http://www.studiodaily.com/2019/03/...-6k-g2-leads-slate-pre-nab-launches-upgrades/
 
Actually I would think Blackmagic Raw actually licenses something from Red just like the Atomos stuff, just not in a Press Release media "partnership" sort of way. I believe Red and Blackmagic are in good terms. Remember someone high from the red team praising them- and lets not forget how Da Vinci speaks so well with red, with even a member of the team posting updates for the software here regularly...
 
Maybe RED doesn't care much about Blackmagic because they don't see them as a threat. Blackmagic is more similar to a budget Alexa than targeting RED features and quality.
 
Marc Wielage said:
I'd be very curious as to which patent shut down Blackmagic's use of CinemaDNG. I thought that CinemaDNG was open-source, so you wonder whose toes got stepped on...

"There is one thing missing from the new camera entirely: CinemaDNG recording. “We’ve had a patent claim — someone is complaining that the DNG format that we’re using is infringing their patent,” Petty said, claiming that because the company didn’t invent CinemaDNG and isn’t familiar with the history of the format, Blackmagic is unsure about the validity of the claim. (Petty did not reveal the identity of the claimant.)"

http://www.studiodaily.com/2019/03/...-6k-g2-leads-slate-pre-nab-launches-upgrades/
Click to expand...

From my understanding the patent issue is about (compressed)RAW recording in camera, cDNG is a (compressed)RAW format. BRAW isn't RAW.

All other major camera makers don't record (compressed)RAW in camera but use Codex boxes (C200 RAWlite isn't RAW).

Only Sony uses compressed RAW (they have enough patents to put RED out of business) with among others their X-OCN 16 bits linear compressed raw formats.

Would love to see how this would workout with Kinifinity(cDNG and/or KineRAW~CineformRAW in camera) when the Chinese goverment decides to step in.
 
CinemaDNG is a nightmare from a data management standpoint. The world is better off without it.
 
Marc Wielage said:
I'd be very curious as to which patent shut down Blackmagic's use of CinemaDNG. I thought that CinemaDNG was open-source, so you wonder whose toes got stepped on...

"There is one thing missing from the new camera entirely: CinemaDNG recording. “We’ve had a patent claim — someone is complaining that the DNG format that we’re using is infringing their patent,” Petty said, claiming that because the company didn’t invent CinemaDNG and isn’t familiar with the history of the format, Blackmagic is unsure about the validity of the claim. (Petty did not reveal the identity of the claimant.)"

http://www.studiodaily.com/2019/03/...-6k-g2-leads-slate-pre-nab-launches-upgrades/
Click to expand...

Not sure about it being Open Source. I know that in order to use it on an Inspire 2 we need to purchase a license.
 
I thought cDNG was open source... though it might have been DNG that was, and the "cinema" motion version was not.

BRAW is legit. And BUMP-G2 is also legit. $6k, add battery/OTC media/lens, and shoot 4.6k/120fps/S35+(APS-H) raw?? Plus it comes with Resolve? That's awesome. It's everything the Dragon-X is, but 1/3rd the cost and with more features.

Also BRAW is now in the BMP4K, allowing 4k raw recording on to SD cards!?... Again, just insanity. (SD cards are cheap enough to be kept as a backup.)

OH, and I didn't realize they were using FPGAs in all of their products!!! That's wicked! No wonder they're able to add so many new features/codecs after the fact...
 
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Patents had nothing to do with cDNG being dropped and BlackMagic RAW becoming a thing. It’s been in the works for some time. Cinema DNG (or Cine-Dung as many call it) is and always was pure crap. As for BRAW being more efficient or better/ faster than R3D, I’m really not so sure about that. 4.6K BRAW runs like silk on a decent laptop, sure... So does 5K R3D. I do think that R3D is now a bit dated, but it’s a product of its time — first real inception was 11 years ago now. So many newer abilities have come along in terms of what hardware can do and what can be utilized to optimize certain algorithms and new codecs like BRAW can be developed with these advances in mind. RED could do the same with a new version of R3D, but they still have all the legacy base that needs to be supported.

Ultimately, I think most of the aversion to R3D in the industry still comes from the old days when it was new and complicated and computers had a hard time digesting 4K anything. But when we get down to brass tacks on all this stuff, I can cut 8K Monstro projects on a 13” MBP just fine. No, I’m not going to be doing compositing or finishing or serious transcoding on a lightweight notebook like that, but I have no issues doing a primary edit on the go. Way more convenient and faster than editing just about anything else was a few years ago. Sure, we talk on here about which system will handle 8K and all that, but that’s often the holy grail spec and while it’s ideal for grading, compositing, finishing, etc.. it’s not necessary.

BRAW shares a lot of functional commonality with R3D. More than I think many realize. It’s still compressed and encrypted RAW in a very similar way. 3:1 compression by default... The “de-Bayer” process is still done on playback just like R3D and they have the same quality and resolution extraction options.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Patents had nothing to do with cDNG being dropped and BlackMagic RAW becoming a thing.
Click to expand...


We removed the .dng because we had a patent claim, etc... (at around 16:45).

The patent holder is not to blame... the organization who approved the patent should be banned from this planet.
 
Misha Engel said:

We removed the .dng because we had a patent claim, etc... (at around 16:45).

The patent holder is not to blame... the organization who approved the patent should be banned from this planet.
Click to expand...

I suppose that’s why DNG is removed... Still BRAW would have been developed and put into place regardless.
 
BRAW, prores raw, CanonLite, etc were an inevitability/necessity... Basically a form of raw that can playback in realtime at 4k+ and whose datarate isn't prohibiting resolution (re: compressed raw, 4k+). cDNG, ArriRAW, etc all have data rates that are prohibiting resolution/framerate/capture time.

It's cool that RED is finally working towards getting decompression to the GPU, but it's still in beta, only works with ~6gb nVidia cards... in windows only... and it took 11years... but it might be a little late to the party. BRAW has that right now, cross platform, and out of the gate, with *way* less hardware requirements (granted 4.6k instead of 8k, but still, the minimum hardware requirements for 4k, 5k, 6k are the same as 8k with r3d).

I wouldn't say r3d is obsolete, so much as I'd say others have caught up and now offering similar products (better performance?) for way less money. No doubt RED is probably trying to sue everyone (it's their MO, and that original patent is pretty broad/vague), but the genie is out of the bottle.
 
The complainant related to Cinema DNG has not been specified. What is a bit of a worry is whether origination on legacy cameras in Cinema DNG may be injuncted in the future. I guess once it has been through post-process it could be anything. Simple handing over of Cinema DNG camera files might become a thing of the past if the frighteners get put on heavily enough by an aggrieved entity.
 
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