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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

dji Ronin (XL) Multi Test-Shoot/Review!

constantine Tirintzis said:
I dont know about Ketch , but I wil tell you my opinion.

After your friend can give a good laugh on a steadicam thread making a cheap copy of the exo vest that doesnt work and its crap, and having the nerve to copy partly the easyrig patent and the Flowcine Serene arm patent ,and even gave it a name ,(it is catchy) pretending that you never seen this before.
Does your friend knows doing anything else than try copying other peoples ideas, out of crap sheet metal, and try to sell them like his own ideas? Go tell him that the inventor of the Serene Flowcine arm, told you that, and we ll be at IBC to show him some more new tricks to copy.
And tell him that I think its a bargain LOL. Just like Chris Fawcett said about the copy of his exo vest.:devil:
Click to expand...

Constantine ... I don't knew about it.. I will take off my post .. sorry .. "Flowcine Serene arm" WAW.. I found it on your website .. Looks solid .. .. .. How much it will be ?
 
I agree with Constantine on this... But more on the Serene design copy then the easing one.

The Serene is just coming to market and making such a cheap looking copy at this stage is a very bad idea... Originality is key, yet competition is good, very good for the end user, but there needs to be a reason to make something, and not just to make a copy of some one else's work for the hell of it, making money of course is always a good reason, but still, the product needs to warrant it's market, and the fact that it serves a purpose while respecting other's patents, if He is doing so, then nothing can be done by any one else's.

Same and more so for the the Easy-rig copy, which there is already several other similar designed such rigs in the market with similar Patents... It just needs to be good, and at a much better price point!!

Every one is copying every one, look what is happening on the world of RED and see what Sony, Canon and even Arri have been doing... Follow and continue to read Black Magic and soon some one else's as well, this is the world... Competition is good, really good, just be sure to make a good product and respect Patents or be ready to pay the consequences...

At tho end of the day, there will be a Market for the expensive and the cheaper gear, deepening on how people like one vs the other and what they can afford, and at times the cheaper actually becomes the better tool... :)
 
,I will say this maybe a bit long, but I will stop there.

I have so many times on this forum advised and gave people solutions on how to deal with various problems , what they could do to overcome a problem, I even sometimes designed and sketched the solution ideas for free, to help them over come the probs and carry on with their shots.

I work constantly 24/7 to bring original ideas to life , out of my many years experience working as a pro operator and my designing skills.
I even damaged my health doing this many times.and spent more than half of my life doing this, always following a rule. Not to copy other peoples patents and ideas.

Now at my 50s , I discover that , there is no more respect, both from the manufacturer and consumer side, partly because manufacturers can use people with very low wages to make gazilion copies of something that they photographed going around in exhibitions, and secondly from the consumers that because of the crisis need to go as cheap as possible, and it comes a point that they just dont care, how many hours,days,months,years, you have spent to bring something into light, and how much money you have borrowed to invest for this idea, all they care is to get it cheap, if it kinda does the job.

Thats why from a while back, we decided to patent what is worth patenting.To protect as much as we can our ideas.
I expect people to respect this and the fact that we work our way around Not the easy way to produce an idea ,but that doesn't always happen.

If I was to make something for my self and use someone else idea, its another matter.It would be a personal privet tool.
But when you try to reproduce someone else's idea to make money, the easy way, and market it, then that's a different market.

Why consumers should care about this?
Consumers should care because with out innovators they would be no evolution at anything around you. If this world was full of copiers waiting for someone to give them something to copy, then nothing would evolve.

I know companies that started many years ago making steadicams for example, and even now after 7-8 years they still don't know how to make them work well.
they have cnc s they have engineers, they have spies , they have elastic forgiving and corrupted governments that allow them the cheat, and they still cannot make a good product even copying and reverse engineering.wonder why?

Iam very frustrated. Its my Greek nature.

Sorry for the long post and the off thread subject.
this is the last I will state on this matter.

kind regards
 
Constantine,

I fill your pain and that is why I wrote what I did...

Respecting Patents is a must and this needs to be understood, but not every one does, and for this there are attorneys... Innovators will always prevail, or so we hope!
Even if at times harder to deal with.

A copy is a copy, a well done job from an original idea that can be patented is competition and this is the way it is.

But yeah, harder economic times do force the end user hand at times, but the professional will always go back to the orgiginal product, unless the competition copied product is better and cheaper!
 
there is no more inovations (if they ever were). everything is just a remix of all ideas - just think about handheld gimbals - it was used in copters for a while and its all just electronic version of gyro which was used way way back... :)
 
Uros Zuraj said:
there is no more inovations (if they ever were). everything is just a remix of all ideas - just think about handheld gimbals - it was used in copters for a while and its all just electronic version of gyro which was used way way back... :)
Click to expand...

Since the very first day of human using tools, was always a remix. What you did right now is you cancelled every single inventor in History of cinematography from the day of the first motion camera to the digital age. Wonder what you would be shooting with, if all those people didnt invented, improve, and develop all of the tools that is not everyones every day dish. thats why its called evolution my friend..

Kind regards
 
mentioning evolution you just confirmed what i said - evolving is not innovating. - thats why is always problem with pattenting stuff and lawsuits,... grey area on what someone thinks its an innovation or just remix,...
so is Serene arm an innovation or just a steadycam arm put on top of the easyrig? hard to say...

back to topic and in your defence - time always shows the quality from cheap stuff
 
Uros Zuraj said:
mentioning evolution you just confirmed what i said - evolving is not innovating. - thats why is always problem with pattenting stuff and lawsuits,... grey area on what someone thinks its an innovation or just remix,...
so is Serene arm an innovation or just a steadycam arm put on top of the easyrig? hard to say...

back to topic and in your defence - time always shows the quality from cheap stuff
Click to expand...

depends on how you look at it. Was steadicam an invention? or just a suspension system with a mix of other gyroscopic ideas and physics that served the purpose of stabilizing a camera?To me it was an invention even so all of its physics and mechanics were discovered years back.
some times evolution leads to invention. Bad me . I did it again . Now I will shut up.
 
Mark van Coller said:
Hi Ketch I took delivery of my Ronin and it has done its first test with a 70-200mm arming at sea (which the Movi will not do ) and it worked very well. Here is a link to its first outing.
http://vimeo.com/104167192
Click to expand...

I would love to see the same/similar shots at 24p and not slow motion. The vibrations are more likely to be visible at 24p/25p
 
Uros Zuraj said:
there is no more inovations (if they ever were). everything is just a remix of all ideas - just think about handheld gimbals - it was used in copters for a while and its all just electronic version of gyro which was used way way back... :)
Click to expand...

I wonder, why someone will blame me because I'm looking for something I'm able to afford? let's blame me for buying Blackmagic camera instead RED Epic :) .. and let's blame every RED users for taken "Cheap, made in China Ronin for even less than $3000" .... instead to pay $15,000 for FREEFLY MOVI M10 :lol:

"fishing rod" - is the main idea of $3,525.00 Easyrig and + $3000 for Serene ( "shock-absorber" as in every car ) .. so, sounds like I "must" to pay $6500 for just hook my Ronin ( $3000 ) and Blackmagic ( $3000 ) for just a very few shoots when I need to hold it for more than 15 minutes ? .. for $6500 I would run with them on my hands up to 5 working days :lol:

I don't care about it so much, because main reason to use Gimbals is to have an option to change shooting level, to use 2-3 people who running with unit, and an option to hook it on Crane/ Jib or even to copter ..

so using some kind of support for just a very little part of my workflow will never push me to waste $6500 for it

Look to this samples of supporting devices for Gimbal:


Is it something really "NEW" ? ... are you gonna to blame me if I will decide to buy something like this on E-bay? :001_huh:

The problem is NOT in "consumers who do not respect an inventor" ... problem in terribly overpriced COST of some of video-equipment

if your company find the RIGHT price - no one will search for replacement on E-bay!

When I get my first "DIY" gimbal from E-bay - I found out that I don't like it quality, return in back and step up to Varavon Birdycam Gimbal, but find out that my Blackmagic is too big for it... Varavon Birdycam is good only for Panasonic GH4 :)

I return it and I was step up to Ronin... because DJI company DROP the price for it! :thumbsup: .. but I NEVER even looking into FREEFLY MOVI direction , no matter - how "good" is it !
 
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And I need to at list partially agree with this statements with you Sergei, and as I said, like you there are many out here that do the very same, no arm nor fault in it at all.

Speaking for myself I have found myself almost always in a good position to have always worked very hard and saved good money to buy gear, but I also many times spent way too much money on some gear.

And while some gear might be worth it's price some isn't, not naming any particular piece of gear here, just generalizing.

I have seen a purchased pieces of Gear that indeed cost way too much, at list for what they are in materials used and time it could take to build one and so on, as I happen to know a little about this too...

However, some manufacturers choose to first price their Equipment a little higher as to recoup their R&D costs, then lower the prices once this have been recouped.

Others choose to set a number of units they expect to sale,and price accordingly to regain their R&D across a number of years and sales, making the price from the start lower as to also allow for more units to be sold.

Neither is the wrong way to do it, it depends on capacity to manufacture and economics of such Manufacturer to sustain initial production and spread out R&D recoup.

At the end each and both Manufacturer, Inventor, Customer, have the right to protect their idea, brand, and right to do business as they see fit, and no one can argue that we leave in a Somewhat Free world, and if Patents are not Breached then there will always be some one out there making a Copy, or a Some what similar piece of Gear, or should I better say Product, then one that just came out, some make it ridiculously Cheap, and there for very poor in quality, but others will make it Better priced, more affordable and for what you pay you could actually get a great deal, then there is the occasional Re-Make of an already known product, that cost way less and happens to actually be way better... :)
 
Sabyasachi Patra said:
I would love to see the same/similar shots at 24p and not slow motion. The vibrations are more likely to be visible at 24p/25p
Click to expand...
I have a Flow Cine Serene on order, once it arrives I will shoot some 24p stuff at 200mm from a boat and I will post it here for comment.
So far I am very happy with what the Ronin can do.
 
Guys I wasnt going to continue, but this is not what the point is all about.

So Sergei noone blames you that you buy what you can afford, my problem is that YOUR friend copied as much as he could our patented pending device and its not the only thing he copied, and you came here to market it, and Iam not going to comment about the quality either. Thats where consumer respect goes.

As for the videos you are showing above, they are nothing like the Serene, they are mostly copy the Walter Klassen design, and its bungee systems , so yes the Serene is something new, and no, its nothing ike a car suspension, that shows how much you and your friend knows about stabilizing technology.

Now feel free to buy what ever you like from ebay, and I hope you get a winner too, but dont come here giving us production lessons. In fact you have NO IDEA about the performance of our tool, and the worst thing is that you come here talking about your friends copy with out even knowing f it can work well.

Companies do not work in the back of their garage , and try to make quick buck giving production and quality lessons to others.

So now that you know my problem please end up this conversation , because no matter what our price is, and if its suitable to you or not, you guys COPY an idea that its just about to ship, and yes its a new idea, you probably dont understand why but that doesnt bother me.

And as for your information the Europian price of the Serene is 2140 USD and NOT 3K, thats the us distribution price for USA, and we did everything we could to keep it close to the europian price, however contracts with distributors allows them to deal with the prices how ever they feel. We dont make 1 dollar more than what we make from the other distributors, and the USA distributors have to pay import taxes as well as shipping costs.

Its the same as if I import an American product to Greece for example , the price that is X usd, converts automatically to X euros.

No matter what we offered preorder discounts and we even tried and extented the USA preorder discount just to help this as much as we could.

Have I now answered your questions?

have a nice evening.
 
Mark van Coller said:
I have a Flow Cine Serene on order, once it arrives I will shoot some 24p stuff at 200mm from a boat and I will post it here for comment.
So far I am very happy with what the Ronin can do.
Click to expand...

great stuff thanks Mark.

did you get the power grip easyrig for hard mounting the easyrig arm on tubes? or you will be body mounted?

great test
 
constantine Tirintzis said:
Guys I wasnt going to continue, but this is not what the point is all about.

So Sergei no one blames you that you buy what you can afford, my problem is that YOUR friend copied as much as he could our patented pending device and its not the only thing he copied, and you came here to market it,
Click to expand...
That guy, who show me his stuff is NOT my "friend" actually... I never meet him and only know about his device over the internet .. and I'm absolutely not sure about quality of what he is doing, so I'm NOT "came here to market it" :beer:

I post a pictures about his "offer" in case to find out what people think about it ....and how to find some way to support Ronin..

I don't think you have to worry about him and other people who make a copy of western devices - they are live on "another planet" :lol: if you know what I mean ..

and they "production" will never came to "Hollywood " level anyway. ... so , this is NOT "your problem" at all ( even you cannot to stop them by western patent rules )
Have I now answered your questions?

have a nice evening.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure.. because seems better for me - do not use any support for Ronin at all .. I can't afford it.. the same as I can't afford RED EPIC.. What can I do? grab the bank? :lol:
 
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