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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Delivery Update...

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This is what I never try to loose sight of. Part of what I like so much about the project is the fact that people have the guts to attempt it. I really respect that. Someone looked a the landscape and said, "I want to make my mark" and it has happened. They set very high goals here and they continue to push.

David
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And I don't think there's anyone who wants this to work out for everyone more than Jim. This has to be a personal crusade for him. It's not good enough to make a camera that puts out pretty pictures, he wants this to go all the way. He wants everyone (including himself) to be obsessed with this camera. By that I mean, it's so good you don't want to put it down. You just want to keep shooting, all the time. That's my theory anyway. Jim?

Steve
 
stevesherrick said:
And I don't think there's anyone who wants this to work out for everyone more than Jim. This has to be a personal crusade for him. It's not good enough to make a camera that puts out pretty pictures, he wants this to go all the way. He wants everyone (including himself) to be obsessed with this camera. By that I mean, it's so good you don't want to put it down. You just want to keep shooting, all the time. That's my theory anyway. Jim?

Steve
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Yes... I really like how much I read about how the camera is motivating people to shoot. That is when technology transcends. Yes, it's a tool, but it is one that inspires you to build (or in this case make films, capture images, etc). I don't look at the CineAlta line and say, "i want to shoot with that camera" but I do feel that way about RED.

David
 
To be honest, I haven't been this inspired since I was in film school a long time ago. There's something about the way they have gone about this whole process, allowing us to provide feedback on the design, and building this community that you can't help but want to be a part of. I know I'm taking a chance of sounding like a fanboy here, but I have picked up a lot of video cameras in my time and had fun shooting with them but I have a feeling this one might feel a little different. Time will tell.

Steve
 
Hmmph. I'm sold. I just don't want to deal with the delays and false expectations, so I'm waiting until the production cycle is a little more ironed out and there are more functioning units in the field.

I worked an industry gig yesterday shooting a commercial for Hidden Valley Ranch. Man. Talk about a waste of time, money and resources. Conventional Hollywood kills me. I brought up the RED One to the camera department and all but got mocked off the set. Honestly though, fuck what they were talking about...and I mean that in the nicest possible way. I can smell a revolution a mile away, they can't help their own myopia. It was just so irritating to witness people fumbling about, not really shooting in the most effective manner, yet reveling in hubris. And all this is shrouded in the false nicety that prevails with the above-the-liners. They are nice enough, but you can sense the self-importance. Hollywood. The day is coming when anyone with skill, and one of these cameras will be able to walk into an agency with the same footage we just spent over $100K capturing. The rub is the person with the RED One, who am I kidding, it's going to be me - anyway, this person will have done the same job in 1/3 the time, and 1/1000th the capital put into it. I'm really curious how the 'industry' is going to continue to justify the exorbitant salaries and excess of gear? Did they really need DIT...no. Did they really need trailers, PAs, catering, a Fisher, or the million other incidentals/expendables...no. A 14-hour day...hell no.

As an aside, I remember when I was at USC and bought one of the first DVD players, and recall a professor and other students guffawing at my choice. "That is never going to make it as a format," is literally what they said. Idiots. RED One is about to make history repeat itself. This camera is going to help put some talented helmers on the map, whereas you'll be able to completely bypass the rigid hierarchy currently in place. Anyone with basic knowledge of three-point lighting will be able to vie for the same jobs and produce the images everyone seems to covet. Look out world. The good old boy network is going to have a hard time continuing to outlay large chunks of capital when you'll continually have a new batch of hungry indies waiting for their turn at bat. Obviously, this is good and bad. But you can imagine that people will be willing to trump the best efforts of production teams for a fraction of the cost. A great example is Jarred's shot out the car window. His method cost nothing, but in the same scenario with a DP, you'd have rigging all over the outside of the car, friggin' hostess trays...retarded.

Jim, as if you don't already realize this, but people in Hollywood are wondering why you didn't release the camera to the rental houses here in town. In some ways those camera department heads are right. Getting a new technology up and running is hard enough, but crossing the chasm between early adopters and traditionalists, as we know, is next to impossible. That written, I would think you could have eased and encouraged acceptance by literally donating one or two cameras to the major rental houses, and then letting them beta them for a prescribed period. It's hard to deny what's tangible. That way, you not only dispel naysayers, you simultaneously prove your product and debug without adversely affecting your customer. The slippage of delivery times is frustrating for me, and I'm not even in the queue, so I can't imagine what it would be like if I actually had a reservation. Also, having the camera available in this manner first, would conceivably prevent you from having to discover issues at the expense of those who are going into hock (namely me) to purchase the camera. I know you're saying you're delaying for us, but you're also not NOT taking reservation payments. I mean, why not simply deploy after more development and production issues were tested and beta had been performed if you truly want to avoid releasing faulty hardware?

And sir, don't take what I've written as a slight. I realize what you've done. And your team is the - in the Snoop Dogg vernacular - shizzle too. But I can't help but wonder, about some of the choices. It seems if you didn't have reservations in place, a lot of the bellyaching over release date changes could have been avoided. Unless of course, this has all been but a marketing ploy.


______
My films, they bring all the girls to the yard. I could teach you, but I'd have to charge.
 
This camera is going to help put some talented helmers on the map, whereas you'll be able to completely bypass the rigid hierarchy currently in place. Anyone with basic knowledge of three-point lighting will be able to vie for the same jobs and produce the images everyone seems to covet.
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Bad approach in my opinion. Don't underestimate the value of lighting, art design, and other factors that go into beautiful imagery. A shit shot is a shit shot, no matter what you use for a camera. Knowledge of three point lighting will not help you push the veterans out. Thinking like a good DP and being able to get the most out of the camera is what will get you there.

This camera will change some things, but not by itself.

Steve
 
All I'm saying is, I didn't see anything done on the set that anyone else could not pull off without all the extra accoutrements. The operative adjectival clause in the statement you quoted would be "TALENTED helmers." It's going to take trained professionals to act as one man bands, and pull off the impossible. It's a duanting task, and most WILL fail. I realize this camera is simply a tool, but it's a tool that is going to level the playing field from the acquistion standpoint. It's still up to us in the end to come with the ideas, stories and other intangibles that make a film great. Only a moron doesn't get that concept at this point, but thanks for thinking highly of me.

Did Jarred have an art dept, or anything else shooting the driving shots? I doubt it. I'm not saying that is a finished commercial, but it's a damn good starting point, and one that wouldn't cost anything to acquire and bring back to tweak in the lab.

Granted, I was intentionally being overly simplistic when I mentioned three-point lighting, and my goal is not to push anyone out. It's simply to make a place for myself. Right now, the industry is mired in the bullshit of an age old caste system, but that's going to give way. And having the ability to shoot, and finish with the same resolutions as the heavy-hitters puts immense amounts of power in the indie's hands. We're bound to see more talented filmmakers arise, but by the same token, we're also guaranteed to see an exponential jump in trite filmic examples as well (irrespective of how well they look).

But I digress. That's not really the point of the post.
 
Film Ylem said:
Jim, as if you don't already realize this, but people in Hollywood are wondering why you didn't release the camera to the rental houses here in town. In some ways those camera department heads are right. Getting a new technology up and running is hard enough, but crossing the chasm between early adopters and traditionalists, as we know, is next to impossible. That written, I would think you could have eased and encouraged acceptance by literally donating one or two cameras to the major rental houses, and then letting them beta them for a prescribed period. It's hard to deny what's tangible. That way, you not only dispel naysayers, you simultaneously prove your product and debug without adversely affecting your customer. The slippage of delivery times is frustrating for me, and I'm not even in the queue, so I can't imagine what it would be like if I actually had a reservation. Also, having the camera available in this manner first, would conceivably prevent you from having to discover issues at the expense of those who are going into hock (namely me) to purchase the camera. I know you're saying you're delaying for us, but you're also not NOT taking reservation payments. I mean, why not simply deploy after more development and production issues were tested and beta had been performed if you truly want to avoid releasing faulty hardware?

And sir, don't take what I've written as a slight. I realize what you've done. And your team is the - in the Snoop Dogg vernacular - shizzle too. But I can't help but wonder, about some of the choices. It seems if you didn't have reservations in place, a lot of the bellyaching over release date changes could have been avoided. Unless of course, this has all been but a marketing ploy.


______
My films, they bring all the girls to the yard. I could teach you, but I'd have to charge.
Click to expand...

I couldn't disagree with you more. It was the folks that Jarred brought from DVXuser and some of the open minded hollywood pros that helped make this camera what it is. Jim opened his development to the world and we are the ones that responded. They took all of our suggestions and found ways to incorporate most. Now you think that the major rental houses should have priority! This camera is not going to go well in rental houses, it is affordable for nearly anyone to buy, so even the indie film maker will be buying not renting. The rental houses better invest in glass, ooops, Red has cine lenses too. Hmmmm Batteries, nope red has that, recording media, sorry. Well theres always props and set dressing. Maybe the rental houses shouldn't have snubed the indies for so long make it nearly impossible to make a film.

Off of my soap box

I'll have a happy new year and the slips have not bothered me at all. I can wait for an incredible camera at an incredible price!

Carry on RED!
 
I am so coming for you Hollywood. Thanks Jim, I've been waiting for this for a long time and didn't even realize I was waiting for it. My query about RED One deployment strategy still remains though.
 
Gopher77 said:
I couldn't disagree with you more. It was the folks that Jarred brought from DVXuser and some of the open minded hollywood pros that helped make this camera what it is. Jim opened his development to the world and we are the ones that responded. They took all of our suggestions and found ways to incorporate most. Now you think that the major rental houses should have priority! This camera is not going to go well in rental houses, it is affordable for nearly anyone to buy, so even the indie film maker will be buying not renting. The rental houses better invest in glass, ooops, Red has cine lenses too. Hmmmm Batteries, nope red has that, recording media, sorry. Well theres always props and set dressing. Maybe the rental houses shouldn't have snubed the indies for so long make it nearly impossible to make a film.

Off of my soap box

I'll have a happy new year and the slips have not bothered me at all. I can wait for an incredible camera at an incredible price!

Carry on RED!
Click to expand...

Huh? Are you reading my post? I'm asking a question. It's the camera department heads I was working with who have the negative attitudes about the camera. As a matter of fact, I ended up sounding like some fanboy touting what I haven't even personally seen either. They're the ones who shouldn't be saying what they said, so how do you dispel their comments? How do you instill confidence in something without asking people to simply "trust" that everything will come up roses? This is still business, and $17K is still $17K last I heard. I for one don't have that kind of cash lying around. Although I realize a lot of people certainly do, I would still imagine people will rent the cameras. Production companies for instance rarely own their own equipment (HVX's are affordable, but people still rent them). I merely presented a suggestion as a way to go about that.
 
Red will be ready when RED is ready.
When it rains, let it rain.

When it rains Red, there is nothing you can do.
Look forward to the downpour. ;-)

Let it Red-rain...
Let it Red-rain...
Let it Red-rain...
 
End-Users must remain as flexible in their short-term plans and needs as RED is in conquering glitches and production delays. They will happen. Plan for it. Delay your shooting if possible. This delay is as necessary a step as delivering the first 50 cameras. If RED delivered cameras to the next however many customers and a bug surfaces after they send out a new firmware build, not only do they have to fix the bug, they have to babysit the deluge of tech support issues that arise from people dealing with that bug times 50 or 100. That could cause catastrophic disruption to the delivery schedule. The delay is the sensible option, the survivable option. IMO you're doing yourself and the folks at RED an injustice if you expect the delivery schedule to be free of hiccups. We cannot expect RED to have zero logistical defects so fresh out of the gate. They must be flexible and so then must the End-User.
 
Jannard said:
We just need to make sure that there are no complaints about how well everything works before we ship more cameras.

Jim
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This is just plain wise. The next releases should represent all (or as much as) a RED Digital Cinema Camera is capable of. This makes sense as releasing anything else leaves you open to criticism you do not need in the early stages of RED.

David
 
stevesherrick said:
I know I'm taking a chance of sounding like a fanboy here, but I have picked up a lot of video cameras in my time and had fun shooting with them but I have a feeling this one might feel a little different.

Steve
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Totally. I understand the fanboy criticism (only to a point) but what is the big problem with getting excited about this technology. It's democratizing among many other things.

David
 
" Did they really need trailers, PAs, catering, a Fisher, or the million other incidentals/expendables...no. A 14-hour day...hell no."

YES they do need it all ... if you think one person can pull off the same production value- then head on down to the ad agency and present you ad at 1/1000 the cost....

Jarred shot looks very good ... now lets have the same shot in a commercial .... now it needs to be shot on this day & during these hours , teh ad agency & client will have 6 persons there ... we need total of 3 cars , need to get permits to control the same road , have XY insurance , schedule police to control traffic , insurance might require stunt drivers , may only have a one 1 hr time window to get the shot , will need persons to clean the car ( dust it , clean off bird crap etc) , where do persons go to bathroom out there ? , food ? ... it's no longer a 2-4 person shoot ... so you say forget the crew, just steal the shot - well you tell the ad agency & client you're just going to go out and steal the shot and you'll show it to them later = not going to happen - you gotta to do it all by the book ( permits , insurance etc ) ..
do you think local ads are only bad because they are shot on SD video ? switch the SD to HD or 35mm you think they'll be any better ? i don't think so ....

"It's the camera department heads I was working with who have the negative attitudes about the camera. As a matter of fact, I ended up sounding like some fanboy touting what I haven't even personally seen either."

just maybe this is like the big stock years ... you know where you go to the gas pump, grocery store , shoe store and the cashier's are giving stock tips, even the oil change guy has stock tips ... today you hear PA's , editors , the stage hand , a guy in art dept , your neighbor ( soundman) all have Red reservations ... so perhaps they're just a bit up to there hearing about RED reservations ??
 
Film Ylem said:
Huh? Are you reading my post? I'm asking a question. It's the camera department heads I was working with who have the negative attitudes about the camera. As a matter of fact, I ended up sounding like some fanboy touting what I haven't even personally seen either. They're the ones who shouldn't be saying what they said, so how do you dispel their comments? How do you instill confidence in something without asking people to simply "trust" that everything will come up roses? This is still business, and $17K is still $17K last I heard. I for one don't have that kind of cash lying around. Although I realize a lot of people certainly do, I would still imagine people will rent the cameras. Production companies for instance rarely own their own equipment (HVX's are affordable, but people still rent them). I merely presented a suggestion as a way to go about that.
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Right. I'm glad that's sorted. Now...
 
obin said:
I am not very happy with this slip. mine is 610 that means that ours has slipped a month, yet people ahead of me are getting 600 cameras. Can you include 10 more units in that schedule? I am sure you will say "no" because if you did it for me you would have to do it for others....it's just that a month is a pretty big deal.
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I feel your pain obin.
 
I think it is fair to say that it pains me to delay anything. But it pains me more to have unhappy customers...

Jim
 
Happiness is a perceived notion. Perfection is absolute. Don't bow to perception. You if anyone else knows better than that.
 
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