Delay news... sort of.

[Adrian Correia]

From Jim's post I have to assume the board problems have been solved.

Jay

Can we get confirmation on this? The board was the issue that was causing me concern. If that problem is solved then I would be very relieved!

 

[Matt Setnes]

I really do like how one can post here but get slammed by someone else. This is why I do not post.

Anyways, Tom. I was speaking for all reservation holders. I would like to see anyone from 1 to 10 to get a chance at these. But like someone said : the number means nothing. It's the concept of reservation.

Understandable this camera needs to be tested on major films, but why wasn't this stated a while back? Everyone seems to be agreeing with me on it that it really throws the believer (res. holder) to the side letting someone with cool clothes cut the line. What this makes me believe of the company right now, is that if they are capable of "cuts", then what's stopping them from letting a well known DP or director that is willing to pay 3 times the cost just to get an early camera?

To sum it up, business wise - this loses company trust with it's true supporters. Makes me start thinking that even though I still have and want my reservation, I should start earning on this investment I made until arrival. Only thing I have gotten out of all this was specs I never doubted, so in perspective, nothing.

Jim you are a great mind and successor, for that I respect you for. As a company I'm beginning not to.

Seriously though, I feel like I asked someone to the prom but wasn't due an answer till yesterday and only to find out she's going with a cooler guy. ) :

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I really do like how one can post here but get slammed by someone else. This is why I do not post.

Anyways, Tom. I was speaking for all reservation holders. I would like to see anyone from 1 to 10 to get a chance at these. But like someone said : the number means nothing. It's the concept of reservation.

Understandable this camera needs to be tested on major films, but why wasn't this stated a while back? Everyone seems to be agreeing with me on it that it really throws the believer (res. holder) to the side letting someone with cool clothes cut the line. What this makes me believe of the company right now, is that if they are capable of "cuts", then what's stopping them from letting a well known DP or director that is willing to pay 3 times the cost just to get an early camera?

To sum it up, business wise - this loses company trust with it's true supporters. Makes me start thinking that even though I still have and want my reservation, I should start earning on this investment I made until arrival. Only thing I have gotten out of all this was specs I never doubted, so in perspective, nothing.

Jim you are a great mind and successor, for that I respect you for. As a company I'm beginning not to.

Seriously though, I feel like I asked someone to the prom but wasn't due an answer till yesterday and only to find out she's going with a cooler guy. ) :

It was mentioned very early on that it would be tested in the field with whoever they chose to test it with. I believe if you do a search you will find those threads.

No one is cutting in line as far as we know. Jim can have anyone he wants beta test the prototypes. Production cameras, that's a different story.

Why do you feel you are entitled to interest on this investment. Jim never claimed that he would do that. Funny thing is, he's doing it anyway. You get back more than you gave. Seems like a pretty nice thing to do, since he never promised that from the beginning. The $1000 was simply a deposit, fully refundable. Now, it's a bit like an investment. Give Jim a break here man.

Hang in there. Jim isn't looking to screw anybody. He's trying to position the company so that we all benefit.

Steve

 

[liquidigital]

I read these posts and I really just don't understand what everyone expects. No one keeps their customers so well informed, and anyone familiar with camera technologies knows these delays are not uncommon.

To be honest I think Jim opened up Pandora's box allowing himself to be so personal with the buyers. You don't see the head of Mamiya conversing with people on a forum, and the 645d had major,major delays.

From my perspective (I'm not a reservation holder BTW) I'd want the camera I receive to be extensively tested before I received it, and this opportunity has presented itself. (Personally I always buy 2nd gen everything now.)

All the best guys.

 

[Steven Caesare]

Does anybody think a 5-star chef doesn't let some well-respected palates test his dinner menu before the first person with a reservation gets a table on opening night?

Does anybody think that Microsoft doesn't let companies like HP and Boeing test the beta code of their latest OS or SQL server before the final production code goes to those licensees on maintenance who have in essence already paid for it?

Can anybody who feels like they are getting sand kicked in their face provide a post from Jim that says they would be getting something other than a production camera according to their reservation?

They aren't in production. Therefore you aren't getting screwed out of anything.

And those who spun Jim's comments to imply he was looking for marketing value, as opposed to technical/production feedback, from the beta test sites ought to go back and carefully read his initial post on this thread, and then consider issuing a retraction.

My "ugh" has to do with the reaction of some of you folks here.

 

[Antoine Fabi]

There are 4 major projects that will receive RED Beta prototypes. None will have audio and all will only record 4K REDCODE RAW.

Jim

Ah... I understand a lot better now. (in a positive way).

thanks

 

[Finner]

If Jim was to let every major studio and rental facility cut in line and buy production cameras, then we would all have a reason to be very upset.

I think for most of the people who are concerned (not whiners or babies like some people have said) but concerned experienced proffesionals the above statement is the issue. The flood gates have been slightly cracked allowing others in front and no one other then a high ranked RED employee can say for sure that this will not happen more. Like I mentioned before if the beta testers were going out to a test shoot a not profit aimed short movie hey no problem. Don't go glorifing some big producer though and think they deserve a camera before any other reservation holding industry proffesional as small as their company may be. There is no difference between the two other then one makes more money. The people who signed up first deserve the first cameras and its not like big budget camera crews could do any better job then Gibby. In fact with all his years of experience and red specific research and time Gibby has put in I see not many others being able to beta test the camera much better then him.

I am not a whiner and do not expect my camera any sooner then the number I have (it is a big number so it is not like I was ahead of a bunch of people anyway.). It just looks like now we have no idea if more cameras above the 4 movies could be named and sent out making the whole reservation list meaning less. I hope this is not the case and truely Jim has been upfront and open throughout. I do not expect this to happen but I think many can see where it would be a concern. Also I just have trouble seeing what kind of different feedback could come on a limited features enabled camera from 4 movies that could not come from 1 or 2.

 

[Rob Lohman]

Beta testing is not the same as selling camera's or having people cut in line. There are always beta / test / prototype camera's (just like we used to shoot Crossing the Line). Jim has the first few camera's anyway with which he can do as he pleases.

I assume everyone prefers a tested product over a non-tested one?

 

[planet e]

if jim had just beta-tested a prototype camera with a few productions and then announced it after the fact, just as it ALREADY happened with the peter jackson short, it would be all oohs and aaahs here. and people begging for scraps of footage. instead, he gives us another heads up about his intentions, and it's all a big outcry about line crashing and undermining the spirit of the Revolution. it's quite mystifying, really. all this bluster about our Big Investments. if you think a thousand bucks or a coupla thousand bucks with a more-than-money back guarantee and a $2500 price break is a big investment, then you're in the wrong line of business. truly.

what amazes me is that he can push on with such continued generosity and humble expressions of ongoing gratitude and appreciation towards everyone in the face of the impoverished spirit of such egoic nonsense.

thanks for your efforts, jim and company. i'm looking forward to working with one of the finest cameras ever developed in the history of moving images.

 

[Matt Setnes]

scaesare: I realize this. Just a little aggravated how not one single holder of the early reservations will get any of these cams.

Respectively, Jim should be expecting this kind of talk.


Could we at least give these test cameras to people who are NOT our competition in this industry?

 

[RED-Tank]

Jim even mentioned in the last update that the delays would likely only affect the earlier serial numbers, so it's a lot easier for someone with a serial of, say, 400, to be less concerned with the news.

Thank you Häakon, this is exactly what I am thinking, I can go back to sleep now (i mean wake up early and work harder tomorrow to save the money).

Thank you Jim for the update and if there is any "ugh" found, it just makes this project more interesting to hold on with.. haa !

 

[Steven Caesare]

scaesare: I realize this. Just a little aggravated how not one single holder of the early reservations will get any of these cams.

Respectively, Jim should be expecting this kind of talk.


Could we at least give these test cameras to people who are NOT our competition in this industry?

Why?

What agreement do you have with Red that is not being met? What assurances have you been given (as opposed to what you may wish for) that are not being honored (and then some)?

This sense of entitlement baffles me.

 

[Tom Lowe]

You know I really have to laugh and shake my head at people who are continuing to cry and moan that the camera is actually being tested before being manufactured and shipped! Un-freekin-believable...

 

[Tom Lowe]

Well, if anyone can figure out how to get a high-quality fluid head to market at low cost, it will be Jim -- the temptation to have a product called the REDHEAD may be great for him to ignore. :wink: Just imagine the marketing campaign...

Ha Ha Ha.

 

[Adrian Correia]

You hear that Jim? Get to work. I expect renders of the REDHEAD by Monday at 8:00 a.m. No sleep for you!

 

[JD Holloway]

REDBOX could be made available to those over 18 in 48 states...

 

[CJ Roy]

I'm disappointed by the news, or lack there of. I waited 3 weeks to hear virtually nothing in regards to my order. However, I'm not dropping my order. I've waited since NAB '06 and it would be foolish to pull out now because it does have potential to be a great camera.

However, in regards to the productions that are receiving Red cameras, I have a couple of questions and concerns.

1. What is the length of the shoot for these "higher budget" productions? If they are high budget, they'd be anywhere from roughly 30-90 day shoots.

2. Will the productions give feedback as they go, or will you wait till end of principle photography to accumulate all the feedback then make changes to the camera?

3. What kind of changes is Red willing/expecting to make? Hardware or software? Obviously software would be easier to implement, thus cutting down on delay time. Hardware would require re-engineering designs and extend any expected delay.

Any info is appreciated. Thanks.

-CJ Roy

 

[Mardi_Gras]

Why?

What agreement do you have with Red that is not being met? What assurances have you been given (as opposed to what you may wish for) that are not being honored (and then some)?

This sense of entitlement baffles me.

I have to agree with you. There really is no reason for anyone to whine and moan about being stuffed by Jim/Red team. This is how I see it; the man is willing to refund your full deposit with interest, should you not have the stomach for the delays. Secondly, this is the first time I'm able to participate in the development of such a piece of tech from the perspective of a potential customer... its just not done anywhere else. Do your research. Beta testers are just that... beta testers and not customers. The manufacturer SHOULD reserve the right to assign their beta products for testing without being chastized.

Let's all take a deep breath and chill...

 

[Damien Molineaux]

I'd love to have a Beta camera to test.

I'm producing a 200 grand doc this summer. You know what ? I can't afford to use a beta camera.

When I get my Red I want it to be reliable (not Safari for Windows). I need it to be reliable, to be able to rent it out, and be confident it'll work as announced (although s..t happens, I know).

To all early reservation models, don't get confued between beta cameras and early production models, please. Production cameras are not supposed to be beta cameras. You want to be a beta tester, contact red personnaly, show them you have the experience required (to be useful to them) and the right project.

I'm bummed out to have to wait. I would love to test a red and yes I'm jealous of those who are, but I can't afford for my red to be a beta camera.

Cheers,
Damien

PS I do however agree it would be nice to see some early adopters, who can afford to be beta testers, given a chance to do so.

 

[Andrew Benz]

Wow, how times change. There is a HUGE lack of mutual respect on this forum... I am tired of it... no SICK of it!. We, as a group are composed of individuals of every geographic, socio-economic, religious, academic, vocational (military) backgrounds. We are tied together by this unquenching desire to communicate via images/sound, no matter their origination (film/digital) or their distro channel. We all have alot to learn from one another. So why all the unbridled attacks on people who think differently from yourself (the collective YOURSELF). There are valid seeds of truth to each and every side of this debate, the bashing does nothing but create ill will and if you have not noticed "REDUSERS" are collectively seen as... well. my point is let's not fuel the flames and the flaming of users--(especially from snipers with 1 or 2 posts... I do not get it... ego?...stirring the pot?)

If we keep attacking one another over insipid points then we are no better than the worst jackasses from the other forums.

I look forward to six months from now when we as Professionals can discuss craft directly related to RED.

Now, I love to get the insight from those that are very different than me, that have knowledge diff. from my own. But, why would they post when someone is going to rip them a new asshole for not being perfect---this is a place to learn and exchange ideas.... hence the word forum. This post is not being made from a high horse, I say this because for the most part I care about the people here and on the RED Team.

-- have a great weekend all,

Andrew