Delay news... sort of.

[Craig Schober]

beta browser

beta browser

When I get my Red I want it to be reliable (not Safari for Windows).

this might be the first offical tangent thread from this posting but you are describing exactly what the new safari for windows and mac currently is...a beta.

i hope i'll have more than just a tangent thread next friday.

 

[Mike the beginner]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike the beginner
I understand the feelings from the very early reservation holders. But lets look at this from reds point of view.

4 "major projects" could gain red another huge publicity/marketing hit with who knows maybe at least another 500 cameras ordered if the projects turn out positive for the red camera. The main advantage points for the red camera like 4k, price, dynamics etc will all shine through and make the camera even more known and talked about, which is likely to make it ever more sought after.... quote

I just finished teaching marketing to filmmakers on the college level for 3 years. Marketing is all about one word: PERCEPTION. When you've got the faithful chomping at the bit, people that will never "leave or forsake you" just like in a marriage--don't you want to make them happy too? Then everyone wins.

One camera, one red user. Simple. Anything else... :waaa:

I'm sorry, but let's get real here.

Sorry i disagree with you. I think Jim Jannard is one brilliant marketing man full stop. You are entitled to your opinion i am fine with that. Do you really think the vast majority of reservation holders are now un happy because 4 large projects are being done with red prototypes? Sure there will be some who might be a bit miffed but how many?? very few on a percentage basis. You ask me to get real????? Exactly what part is un real??

Jim Jannard has the first five cameras anyway (or was it four) so either way he can give his cameras to anyone. The red one will be a better camera due to the delay, that will make a lot of happy reservation holders. At $17,500 i cannot believe that anyone will be unhappy when the camera finally ships.

I happen to agree with the path he has taken right from the beginning and up until now. My only gripe as a beginner is the damn high price of all the other pro gear elsewhere. The more units red sells the better. Perhaps in the not too distamt future, demand for other pro gear will start to increase until it becomes worthwhile for others to step in and discount some of the pro gear prices to a level of price that equates to red pricing.

Mike the beginner

 

[Finner]

By the way Jim and team I'm not sure if you guys are even reading this anymore or if you all threw in the towel on this thread long ago but thanks for the openess. I feel bad that you have run into so many obstacles on the home stretch. It is clear you guys are working your asses off to get things completed and I for one appreciate it. Heck clearly you are taking steps to try and make this the best camera you possibly can and who is anyone to judge you on that. My posts were not meant to be all doom and gloom as that was not the intent. I guess I was just suprised as I had just thought the early testers would be the first in line.

So thanks for the hard work and I look very forward to the future of the camera and the company.

cheers,
Daren

 

[Jesse Wendel]

I too am simply stunned by people complaining how Jim and RED should do this, that or the other thing.

I spent almost ten years as a street and flight paramedic. You'd think I'd be used to people failing to say thank you or have any real appreciation for the competency and professionalism of a Team working hard right in front of them.

What is that old joke...

"Lord, save my son from drowning.
Please Lord, oh please, save him, save him.
Please, please Lord, save my dear, darling son..."
At which point the boy suddenly washes up onto the beach.
The mother runs over to the boy and throws her arms around him.
He looks up at her and breathes, "Mother."
The mother looks down at her son. He's alive!
She looks at him again. Looks at him carefully.
Then she looks up at the heavens...
"He had a hat..."​

Jim is too professional to expect gratitude. And he certainly isn't doing this for people's praise. But at least, have the common courtesy to not insult the man's integrity on his own board, okay?

If you don't like how things are being done, ask for a refund. Otherwise, chill.

 

[cckid]

Jim hi,

an additional month or two of waiting for a something that weve been already waiting for decades wouldn't change anything at all...right? it just makes the excitement that much bigger...my last thought would be: make it work...make it work, really good

www.staderzen.com

www.honeymoonthemovie.net

 

[Jannard]

We don't deserve anything until we begin shipping. At that point, all we want... is happy customers.

Jim

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

I find most of this thread pretty funny. It shows how much reality we've lost touch with.

If our boy Jim has created a camera that film makers on MULTI-MILLION dollar movies are going to use to shoot their flicks instead of 35mm, Genesis, or Vipers, etc. And he's still planning on selling this thing for $17,500, then this project is going to be as big or bigger than many of us have dreamed.

I need Jim's company to be successful and strong. Getting the REDs in the hands of people that the media like to talk about is not only smart, it's responsible.

This is all going better than could be expected. I'm very excited.

Here's something else, a little gift Jim is giving those of us that got in early: By getting the cameras into beta with "big names" he will show people the camera can work on any type of project, AND that it's accepted in the industry! The buzz will be incredible.. And of course, so will demand!! Those of us in the early numbers (500 and below for sure, perhaps higher) should be able to make back our ENTIRE investment or much better in a matter of months.

With that in mind.. If you are an owner operator, and you plan to rent out, be sure to get a "full package". People will ask for it.

Jay

 

[Steven M. Bailey]

I understand the frustration of many as to the rental market situation. Sometimes things work out. Often times they don't.

As far as the testers not being Rez holders, I don't remember that ever being said specifically. I remember in a previous post Jim inviting David Mullen to come by anytime and take it for a spin.

Jim is smart and seems to have a good grasp on drama. He Knows that in a film, if you let out too much information too early, you spoil the ending and the audience looses interest. If you don't let out any information than the audience looses interest on the basis of boredom.

If you let out just enough information to allow an attachment if the imagination, then everyone will hang on, stirred up, if for no other reason than to see what will happen next. He's got most of us hook, line, and sinker. I don't mind. Like any good movie, I don't mind being taken for a joyride as long as it ends well.

Either I get a Kick ass camera, or I get my money back +. Whats not to like? The other fringe benefits, rentals, notoriety, status, etc..etc may or may not be there.

I haven't met Jim but I think I can see him sitting at his computer, Cheshire-cat grin on his face, posting only tid-bits to defuse only the most volatile of posts having gone astray from his greater scheme of things.

Not knowing that scheme we only see in part, the future he has planned for us, and in our imaginations we weave our own stories from his cryptic posts.

We have never had any more to stand on than the word of Jim. We can either continue on this ride and trust him to fruition, or not. It really is that simple.

I'm not tied to a current shooting schedule and that makes this easy for me to say, for those of you that are. Good luck and may Friday bring you a bigger piece of the mystery that is RED.

I don't think any of us are getting screwed, I think we have already gotten much more than we deserve.

 

[danielg]

Not a shock

Not a shock

The fact that there is a delay is not a shock. Trying to roll out a piece of major kit like this hard. I'm a EE, and the project I'm working on now has gone through several design revisions. It happens.

We're lucky to have the straight dope here. Some companies see telling the truth as a risky, and would rather 'spin' it. Risk amelioration, and all that. They seem to forget that sellers and buyers need to have bonds of trust, in addition to whatever geld changes hands.

Keep up the work, Red Heads.


=Dan

 

[Gbabymogul]

I'm disappointed by the news, or lack there of. I waited 3 weeks to hear virtually nothing in regards to my order. However, I'm not dropping my order. I've waited since NAB '06 and it would be foolish to pull out now because it does have potential to be a great camera.

Actually it's closer to 5, but who's counting? What can you do? Suppliers have their own prognostications. I would have preferred a simple, "no update till Friday", instead of refreshing for a whole day, haha.

However, in regards to the productions that are receiving Red cameras, I have a couple of questions and concerns.

2. Will the productions give feedback as they go, or will you wait till end of principle photography to accumulate all the feedback then make changes to the camera?

Answer: No. Productions don't give out that kind of in depth technical access you're asking, IMO. That's the trade off for RED, have a highly professional crew test the camera and workflow (enriching us all eventually) but without substantive posts or info. One can guess that the tradeoff is amicable for RED because they don't necessarily want lots of test footage floating around with prototype cameras (the lack of PJ's short being aired probably follows this strategy too). Whether it be accurate or not, i think they felt the "prototype" rubric wasn't being heard whenever footage was released, so they are keeping a close reign on any footage (even spectacular footage by PJ, by all accounts). Again, this is a tradeoff because you keep the initial marketing high, but when the cameras hit the streets you'll lose all advantage of controlling the cameras reputation.

3. What kind of changes is Red willing/expecting to make? Hardware or software? Obviously software would be easier to implement, thus cutting down on delay time. Hardware would require re-engineering designs and extend any expected delay.

As previously stated, the updates will be software. Unless the boards problems haven't been solved.

I must say this thread has been bananas.

First off, i reserved early, so i can understand some of the questions that some people have been airing. I don't think it does service to call people names for them (on either side). A misapprehension, while unfounded, may still have some merit for the individual. That said, IMO,

1. Reservation numbers were for a place in the line. That's it. No magic ticket to Hollywood, no interest rate bearing bond, no seat on the board of directors. It was to guarantee that when they make camera numero ... that you will receive it. If you were planning on leveraging scarcity then it was a misapprehension.

2.As Rob stated these aren't production units. No one at no time has the right to tell the founder of a company how to use the cameras that belong to him. If he wanted to sell them for a million a piece or film his grandkids barbie doll party; it's his business. The fact that he's beta testing them at large productions benefits you. That R you have is a promise that you are important and your camera is and will be one of a kind.

3. What is more important, IMO, than who's testing the beta cameras (i wish Mr.Mullen was though) is that the board problem is solved and suppliers are reliable. If i were to voice concerns it would be that RED may be overly sensitive to releasing footage, but as a dude who has been an early reserve and been on the RED revolution from day zero, all i was guaranteed was a place in line, and a forum to interact with all my fellow geeks...

Long post. Bananas.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

This thread did go bananas... Wow.

I already said my piece a few pages back and it's the same message voiced by others here. The RED team is beta testing the camera to benefit us all. They will place cameras where they think it will provide the best real-world test results. These are not production cameras. No one is cutting in line at this point.

I also have to second what Finner and a few others have said. Jim and the guys at RED have been great and we appreciate all the open dialogue. So let's not screw it up.

 

[Häakon]

We don't deserve anything until we begin shipping.

Thanks for reminding everyone of that. I think that amongst the hoopla of what the camera may offer, it's easy to forget.

I predict you will have very happy customers upon release. Can't wait to hear the updates next week.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Ok I just skipped 10 pages so I hope I didn't miss something important but let me put forth a question to everyone who is dissapointed about the diminished lead time of the first few reservation holders.

There are two things RED can do. 1) Give the lower res holders the beta cameras. 2) Give big budget active productions the beta cameras.

Let's say they give you the beta cameras and you offer your services to the film projects.

Day 5: If the RED has been in 70% humidity for 3 days the chroma shifts by 20%. Now what? Who is responsible for the camera? Who is to blaim? How do you correct it?

Who here wants to be the fall guy for a production stopping for a day because your piece of equipment is failing? Who here is ready to personally stand behind a completely unknown piece of technology that's still in beta?

If these cameras were ready to be generally fielded... they would be retail cameras. I'm sure the only way RED even convinced these films to field test a prototype was by offering something a retail camera doesn't come with: The full backing of the manufacturer and its engineering team. If they're shooting and that same chroma shift happens there will probably be a RED engineer who is intimately familiar with the actual workings of the camera's DSPs and can either fix it or find a work around.

There is a lot more to field testing a piece of beta hardware than knowing how to plug in a firewire drive, backup to LTO and import into Avid.

 

[chuck colburn]

Right on Gavin.

Humidity,high and low temps, etc. all wreak havoc upon electronics. Hell, humidity is the bane of film cameras. Ever seen stiction in the gate? Or film that's sweating? Of course one would have to be crazy to shoot let alone live where the humidity is 70% for three days. I mean come on where in the world does it rain that much?

Chuck

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Portland, Oregon. It rains all of the time.

 

[Nik Manning]

Hey Jonathan. I think you should look into O'Connor's 1030 series tripods. It'll still cost you around 6k but that's better than 13. You can't really compare a car to a porfessional tripod head. Everybody has a car. Not many people have pro level heads. That alone is going to affect the price greatly. Ask Curt from CVB about what makes tripods expensive. They are not as simple as they may seem. Also, try toning down your postings. You'll get better responses. Everything's not so black and white. Trust me, the people at arri and chrosziel and sachtler/oconnor aren't all rolling into work with Bentleys and laughing about how they are grossly overcharging their "stupid" customers.

If the tripods were 3k maybe everyone would have one? 13k for a tripod! That is Madness! I went to birns and sawyers and I never saw that tripod. Maybe they keep the $100 tripods in a different place than the 13k tripods. Anyway I support the RedPod idea 100%. Maybe 3 different ones from 1k,3k,5k. That would be some great pricing.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Well the Birns & Sawyer guy told me in no uncertain terms that NOTHING would work for the RED except at least an $8,000 tripod. I have seen much, much cheaper tripods that would hold the weight no problems, but apparently if you don't buy a 35mm tripod you're just an amateur and don't deserve to own the RED. That's what I was told, anyway.

 

[Nik Manning]

Well the Birns & Sawyer guy told me in no uncertain terms that NOTHING would work for the RED except at least an $8,000 tripod. I have seen much, much cheaper tripods that would hold the weight no problems, but apparently if you don't buy a 35mm tripod you're just an amateur and don't deserve to own the RED. That's what I was told, anyway.

Hopefully RED will change this for us buddy. The guy that shot Napoleon Dynamite was more of an amateur also and he did okay.

 

[chuck colburn]

Portland, Oregon. It rains all of the time.

Portland?
I thought that was in Maine. Oh well must be in some other part of the state.

 

[donatello b]

head & sticks - just depends on how you have the camera built & what YOU prefer ...
a sachtler 7+7 will work on any build any weight ...
a sachtler video 20 would work for some builds - many operators might feel video 20 is too light a head ...

for 16mm & 35mm ( arri II/III) i prefer the video 18 if i'm out in the woods and i have to carry it .. if somebody else is carrying it then i prefer the 7+7 ...

a RED with a cooke 18-100 , production matt box , follow focus etc would sit & operate better on the 7+7 .... i'd have to test it on a smaller head ?