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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Delay news... sort of.

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I too am all for big studios being used as Guinea Pigs for RED. We will all benefit from their experience.

So everyone at RED, take your time and hurry up.
 
thinkbug said:
I understand the point of view of early reservation holders, especially the top 100, but at this point I think we should be happy with just getting the damn camera and the already promised $2500. And if its specifications exceed our expectations, all the better.
Click to expand...

I remember Jim saying the first 100 reservation holders also get a special gift. Or maybe that was the top 10.
 
Häakon said:
I also realize that it's great publicity for RED to get these cameras out to better-known directors and cinematographers for their own marketing advantages, there's no question about that.
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Have no doubts, 4 movies shooting RED increases the demand/value of your camera package by 10x. When you get it, it will be 100% legit with nothing to prove, and still supply constrained in the market place.
 
I have a small bone to pick with the people whom are complaining about RED beta testing on live productions.

You are complaining about your assumptions, not about what RED actually promised.

No kidding, Jim and the RED Team are keeping faith. All the griping is petty.

RED never said they wouldn't run beta tests with whomever they damn well wanted. From the start all they've ever said is: "Specifications and delivery subject to change at any time."

All they've promised us is:

a) They'll do their best to deliver a camera Jim is proud of, when Jim is satisfied it is ready,

b) The specifications, delivery date and even the price may change at any moment (and sometimes it has!), and

c) If at any time we aren't satisfied, we may have our deposit back plus more, depending on our place in the queue.
​
That's it. So STOP WHINING. We're getting what we signed up for. Damn.

And oh yeah, Jim also promised us that he PERSONALLY guarantees we'll get our money back, no matter what, if at any point we ask for a refund, prior to camera delivery. His personal word. Beat that with a stick.​

Now in addition to all that, RED has made every effort to stay open and communicate with us for over a year, throughout the entire development process. They've listened to our design requests and implemented many of them, no matter how weird they may have sounded sometimes -- *cracks up* -- with a speed and clarity and a deep understanding of design, which blows me away. The quality of the RED Team is frankly as good as any I've seen.

But nowhere did Jim or anyone at RED say, ever, that they wouldn't beta test or they wouldn't test market their cameras in a way which makes good technical sense for development and/or good business sense for RED. If you heard that, you made it up in your head. Really.

In this case, it seems to me RED's beta test is killing two birds with one stone, one technical, one marketing. I think it's a smart move. My opinion. *smiles* Regardless, putting four fairly incomplete named cameras at major shooting productions for test purposes is totally RED's call and all of you people complaining, please... stop whining. It makes you look small and petty.

Seriously, go write a script. Shoot a short movie. Get a new client. Play with your kids or ride a bicycle. Do something, but stop griping about your expectations. RED has kept its promises. Everything else is stuff -- all the stuff you're complaining about -- you made up in your head.

It's natural to be disappointed, especially when our expectations are let down for a bit and there isn't anything we can do to help. But taking out our upset on the people working around the clock to fix the problem, only makes things worse. Let's cut them and our colleagues on the Board some slack, okay?

One week to a shipping schedule if all goes well. *smiles*

Thanks much for your understanding,
Jesse Wendel
 
JonathanLB said:
I would think they'd run alongside tested cameras, but I could be wrong. That's ballsy if not, hehe.

Well I'm not an early res number Mike, I ordered post-NAB 2007 so I'm sure the market will be more full than it will be at first, by the time I get mine. Still, I think the minimum I'd get for a package like that would be $4,500 per week, considering that's actually about $125,000 in equipment and I'm going to have to cover insurance on all of that equipment, too, which I'm guessing will not be cheap.
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Hey Jonathon,

Insurance? Not for clients... No way. Either they have their own and they produce this for you on paper or you bill them for it. It's not included in the package price. Any production worth it's salt will have insurance on board.

Mike EC :ph34r:
 
I think we should be happy with this testing, and I can clearly see the reason why they would choose major motion pictures to test the camera.

I'm NOT saying that people here ain't professional, you guys know much more then I, and some of here ARE working in that high field (for example, David Mullen, Tom, ...) but these guys are like on the highest level.
They will know where to look at faults of the camera, better then anyone.
Their demands will be higher than anyone, because of the expactation, and money and talent involved...

The big boys are maybe a bit more demanding. Hence chosing them to test the camera.
 
Hello. I'm trying to figure out the posts saying that now there will be a shorter gap between the delivery of the camera to the early reservation holders and the later reservation holders.

What makes you think that?
 
Alpha male wants to meet Beta kit

Alpha male wants to meet Beta kit

Those clamouring to be Beta testers are probably Alpha males :)

Any Alpha females on the list?


Mike Brennan
 
Feature crews are experts?

Feature crews are experts?

sidderke said:
They will know where to look at faults of the camera, better then anyone.
Their demands will be higher than anyone, because of the expactation, and money and talent involved...

The big boys are maybe a bit more demanding. Hence chosing them to test the camera.
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I hope so, but this has not been the case with the introduction of f900, Panavised f900, D20 and Genesis.
Vested interest in film, ignorance, more ignorance, egos, bigger egos and overall lack of electronic experience of feature crews and production did more harm than good in the communication of the worth of these products.

Let the pictures do the talking.

Mike Brennan
 
Costelloe Michael said:
Hey Jonathon,

Insurance? Not for clients... No way. Either they have their own and they produce this for you on paper or you bill them for it. It's not included in the package price. Any production worth it's salt will have insurance on board.

Mike EC :ph34r:
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Really? Good to know. But how can I make sure my stuff is generally insured so that if I use it on my own projects any problems would be covered by insurance? Would that be the same as having it insured on anyone else's shoots, or is that different? I haven't yet looked into this to be honest, but I should be doing that soon I realize. I just am not sure how that type of insurance works. I have home owner's insurance for the value of my collection and other contents of the condo, but that's about my knowledge of insurance (that and car insurance).
 
I'm sure the two days with Peter Jackson and his crew was of surpassing value for the Red team. I can see why Jim would want to take this extra time they have waiting for bonehead suppliers and run it through additional quality crews in real production settings.

Just think of how the Viper got tweaked over the first productions--and it wasn't a "beta". Granted, digital acquisition was still fairly untried, but imagine this same scenario but with the modular, pre-production Red with Jim's development model operative. Plus with four crews, you're not limited to the quirks of just one DP/op/director.

I can't wait to see what the end results will be. Even the value of these tests for the re-design of accessories (as Red is wont to do) will be a great benefit--and I won't have to lock in on an "early" version. Cool.
 
Mickjoebill said:
But this has not been the case with the introduction of f900, Panavised f900, D20 and Genesis.
Vested interest in film, ignorance, more ignorance, egos, bigger egos and overall lack of electronic experience of feature crews and production did more harm than good in the communication of the worth of these products.

Let the pictures do the talking.

Mike Brennan
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Yeah, but you can't deny the value of having it run through an actual production environment with experienced operators and DP, who I am sure are more digital-savy than those who worked earlier with those cameras.

What is different here is: we're farther down the digital road; Jim is getting to decide where the cameras go; Jim's production M.O.; and having Red techs on set taking notes and helping out.

I'm very optimistic.
 
From Jim's post I have to assume the board problems have been solved.. This is good news. As for the rest, well we're looking at 6 days until the schedule.. I am fine with that, I am also VERY happy to hear they are releasing cameras to "beta testers" already.. This serves a lot of good both from a development and marketing standpoint.

Over all, I'm very happy.. I would have liked a schedule, but a one week delay in getting it is nothing that concerns me.

I just got a "kitchen sink" backpack for Father's day and I'm telling you guys, if the camera is 1/2 as tough as this backpack, our GRANDCHILDREN will be using the damn thing.

Jay
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
if the camera is 1/2 as tough as this backpack, our GRANDCHILDREN will be using the damn thing.

Jay
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Wow. How old are your grandchildren? I wouldn't let someone touch my Red who is under 10 no matter how tough it was. :whistling:

{heh heh. j/k. I get it.}
 
I just talked to an AIM bot about the RED, she didn't seem very impressed but I tried to turn her onto the product. Here's how it went:

7:26 Jonathan: Do you like the RED One?
7:27 Spleak: I don't really know how I feel about the RED. Do you like the RED?
7:27 Jonathan: Yeah the RED is awesome.
7:27 Spleak: Interesting. That's cool... No one else has ever told me what they think of the RED.
7:27 Jonathan: Well you're really missing out then.
7:27 Spleak: OK, maybe I am really missing out then.
7:28 Jonathan: You need to go get one on pre-order
7:28 Spleak: Okay, we all know by now that I NEVER leave my computer... so I really can't go anywhere...
7:28 Jonathan: I didn't suggest going anywhere, they have an Internet site you can order from.

Hey, I tried. Not everyone gets the revolution.
 
I don't understand all the complaining about the 4 major films being beta testers. Personally, I'd rather someone else work out the bugs on their feature then on my own, and if the beta tests are successful on these larger productions, they've just increased the demand for my (your) soon to come Red.

Sure it's disapointing to push back my productions, but with straightforward timeline "targets" that Jim is updating us with - well, it allows one to at least roll with the punches and adjust accordingly.
 
Jim is doing exactly what I had asked for when I first got involved in all of this. Test the camera in real production situations. I wanted the best DPs trying it out, working through the bugs, revealing any flaws in the design. If that was someone like Gibby or other reservation holders, that would be fine with me. But clearly there is an opportunity that Jim has come across to get these cameras into the hands of some high profile projects and use those as real world testing ground and a nice marketing angle as well.

Does this affect early res holders? Very much so. It means you will get a camera that is production ready and will only get better with firmware updates. The fact that there are a few cameras (prototypes by the way) out there is doing nothing to take any advantage away from you. In fact, when the articles start to flood the industry about the camera being used on these productions, your res # will have even more value. If Jim was to let every major studio and rental facility cut in line and buy production cameras, then we would all have a reason to be very upset. That would be unethical, and I can't see Jim taking that approach. It would be bad business and he doesn't seem the type to do bad business.

Let's not forget that Jim has given us a nice gift for being early - cash towards the accessories. Quite honestly, he didn't have to be as generous as he is being. He could have said - for the $1000 you put down, I'll give you a $1000 towards the accessories. Instead, he more than doubled that. So, that's one of the big advantages for getting in early as well.

I've seen too many other products be too good to be true and disappear. I've even heard people say this camera would never happen. NAB gave me the comfort level to sit back and say things are going to be fine, the proof was on the screen. If it takes a bit more time (and believe me I'd love to have one now) then I'm okay with it. I still stand by my statement to Jim in a previous post that at some point the camera has to be released, even if it's not 100% to his high standards, but I think we're still within the window of opportunity here. I will only be concerned if the camera is not delivered by NAB 2008, but I think it will and we'll find that out next week.

Until then...let's give these guys the benefit of the doubt. If you take a moment to sit back and really absorb what it is they are trying to do, with an incredibly small team of people, in an incredibly small window of time, it does quite boggle the mind. Makes you wonder if they've got a team of elves hidden away in some bunker working overtime on this.

Thanks for the update Jim!

Steve
 
Hi Guys,
I'm not a Red resevation holder, so I don't have much commited here
but to me the testing of RED & Red code with somthing like Scratch & FCP/COLOR seems to be much more beneficial to potential Red users/Res holders and a much more exciting prospect all round.
It's great having Michael Mann & Dion play with the thing on their next
blockbuster but isn't this the camera for the people? The revolution?
The four Major Players will have Big post budgets as well. The Red footage should look great and give major creds to the camera but most of us will use this box for low budget indie work with limited post possibilities..
I think it's really important that this camera be "Beta Tested" the way
most customers are going to use it.
Come on Jim, punch out another two and hand em over to some "Indie"
reservation holders for testing.
Yours Mezmo
 
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