Definitive AP vs. FCP Thread

[Cail Young]

He's just saying some NLE's appear to be better than FCP at certain things. I don't think anyone's blaming FCP for not being the best solution for everyone.

His original post was all about how FCP needs to render heaps before you can do anything, and his example was that the ton of Sorenson stuff he threw at his editor needed to be rendered to DVCPRO. Bad example. We can generalise from the original statement if you like, but I was trying to get to the bottom of his specific complaint.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

That's likely to ask employee to decide employer. Employer should know what they want at the first place.

My 2 cents

I agree with this. And it's not a trait of bad employers to micro-manage. The most obnoxious thing I've encountered as a small-time producer (who would frankly much prefer to deal with just writing and directing, but whatever) so far is the attitude among people in this business that they NEED certain things, can't work with this, can't work with that, don't want to try this, or that. I won't hire those people.

I interviewed three DPs. I liked them all, the first one had done some incredible work for this music video I saw, and we may work together in the future. The next one had a good attitude for the most part, but the third one was the best suited to my needs. The reason? He was a team player. His attitude was that if we handed him the equipment we have, he can make something good out of it. I much prefer that emphasis on creativity than, "Well, everyone knows you can't use that HDV camera, you need THIS HDV camera, and really I can't make you something good unless your budget is $20,000." I call BS. I'm sure a lot of people would love you to think that, but I've loaned my friend an old XL-1s I had in college and he's used practical lights or daylight and made some amazing looking music videos on budgets of $200 to $500. Sure, he'd have much preferred to be shooting with the RED, editing with an 8-core Mac workstation, and have a full 10 ton grip truck at his disposal, no doubt. But he didn't let the tools ruin his creativity. That's a person with actual talent.

I don't play this game where I have the money, and the employees tell me everything they need. I love suggestions from experts, but then when I have decided based on many expert opinions what I want to buy, you will work with what I have or you won't be working with me. And if you can't work with what I have, you're a hack. Plain and simple. This isn't an "employee" based business, anyway, you hire people on a contract basis, from project to project, and thus should never take too much stock in what any one person says you need, unless you talk to five people and they all agree you need that. Clearly, you need it then.

But I think Avid is a trash editing system, and I think PCs are lousy machines, for instance. Why would I waste a lot of money buying that outdated technology when I like to edit sometimes myself, too? No thanks. I make the decisions because it's my money going into the equipment, and that means we edit with Final Cut Studio 2 on a Mac. End of story! If an editor doesn't know how to use it, he won't be working for me.

 

[M Most]

...And if you can't work with what I have, you're a hack. Plain and simple. .... I think Avid is a trash editing system, and I think PCs are lousy machines......we edit with Final Cut Studio 2 on a Mac. End of story! If an editor doesn't know how to use it, he won't be working for me.

I guess it follows that if I disagree with you, I'm an idiot.

Seriously, Jonathan. You really need to accept that there are people out here who are just as intelligent as you are, but simply have different opinions. And theirs are no less valid than yours. Collaboration is what the film business is all about. Having strong opinions is OK, but if you want to work with others, you sometimes need to bend a bit. That's just a fact of life.

 

[donatello b]

it all depends on the experience of a DP ...
Producers usually are looking for a look and want to see it on a DP reel - well perhaps the DP has been there - done it and if they are going to work for nothing ( almost nothing) they'd prefer to try something NEW or have more $$ in camera/lighting budget - also i find producers like certain looks on your reel and perhaps the DP did that with a 20k lighting budget and now the producer wants the same look with a 2k lighting budget ...

most DP's with experince bring with them their own standards that they have learned over time of what works and doesn't ... when i started out i replaced many DP's that during the interview said YES to everything - yes we can do 100 set ups a day , yes $5 lighting budget , yes no AC , yes the investor can operate the camera , yes any camera will do ...

" we edit with Final Cut Studio 2 on a Mac. End of story! If an editor doesn't know how to use it, he won't be working for me."

so you want a your crew to be "team " player ... doesn't sound like you're being so open to the team spirit ...

 

[Kevin Halverson]

But I think Avid is a trash editing system, and I think PCs are lousy machines, for instance. Why would I waste a lot of money buying that outdated technology when I like to edit sometimes myself, too? No thanks. I make the decisions because it's my money going into the equipment, and that means we edit with Final Cut Studio 2 on a Mac. End of story! If an editor doesn't know how to use it, he won't be working for me.

This is an incredibly narrow minded attitude. Having a range of options and the ability to use different tools is what allows for the best possible outcome. The final product is what should matter, not the logo on the outside of the computer box used in its production. Adobe being cross platform looks like a really excellent option, but I guess since it runs on the "enemy's" hardware platform some will discount it. Avid is certainly a high end tool and in the hands of a competent user, can produce excellent results. In the hands of someone unwilling to grow and learn, well you get out what you put in.

PCs are tools, Macs are tools, NLEs are tools and it seems that some people are tools too.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

... but the third one was the best suited to my needs. The reason? He was a team player. His attitude was that if we handed him the equipment we have, he can make something good out of it.

This is all well and good, but you're not really looking for a true "team." You're looking for people to be part of YOUR team with you in charge and making the rules and dictating equipment choices that you may or may not be the best person to dictate.

There is nothing wrong with that - I'm not passing judgment - show me an awesome AD who runs a tight set, and I'll show you a obsessive sociopath!

But just call it what it is, and own it.

But I think Avid is a trash editing system, and I think PCs are lousy machines, for instance. Why would I waste a lot of money buying that outdated technology when I like to edit sometimes myself, too? No thanks. I make the decisions because it's my money going into the equipment, and that means we edit with Final Cut Studio 2 on a Mac. End of story! If an editor doesn't know how to use it, he won't be working for me.

...until you really really want a particular editor to cut your show because they're briliiant and are perfect for what you need and you get along well... and they're Avid-based.

Could that editor learn FCP and tell a great story with it? Of course. Will it completely derail your delivery schedule and force all kinds of crazy overages? Ayep.

So... that means you edit with FCS2 on a Mac... until you don't.

Lucas
------
Reality Checker
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Zach Nelson]

I started this thread to gather opinions so I could decide between going FCP/Apple or Adobe/PC. I think I'm going Adobe/PC for the lower hardware cost, adobe bridge, 4K support (supposedly), plus I'm a PC guy anyway.

 

[Kevin Halverson]

znelson,

I think you will find the latest Adobe offerings very attractive and provide you build up a decent platform to run it on, completely adequate for working with footage from RED and other cameras.

 

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Okay Jonathan, so first you say that people should work with whatever they have, and shouldn't HAVE anything to be professional.
Moments later you say: "FCS2 is the best, and anyone who comes here and can't work with it, isn't going in my team"...

Do you smell the paradox in that?

Ow, and although the original poster did make his mind up, please keep this thread alive, in the spirit of the original poster.
Some people are still interested in the differences between AP and FCP and the consequenses.

Best regards,

 

[Nook Kim]

You can export the project as an xml file from the higher version and reimport that file in the lower version.

That's a good idea! I don't know why I didn't think of that. Thanks for your tip!

 

[Cail Young]

That's a good idea! I don't know why I didn't think of that. Thanks for your tip!

You do lose some metadata this way, so it's a good idea (as with most things) to hold on to the original higher-version FCP project.

 

[Cail Young]

Something I just found out about which has boned us on a project - Premiere CS3 on OS X will not import projects from lower versions at all. Nice work Adobe!

 

[Joel Kaye]

Something I just found out about which has boned us on a project - Premiere CS3 on OS X will not import projects from lower versions at all. Nice work Adobe!

It works on the PC. There wasn't a CS2 on the Mac - did you verify it import cross platform before you bought everything?

 

[Kevin Halverson]

I am really interested in how well it supports passing a project back and forth between a Mac and PC platform (both CS3). To me, that is one of the capabilities that interests me the most.

 

[Cail Young]

It works on the PC. There wasn't a CS2 on the Mac - did you verify it import cross platform before you bought everything?

We didn't buy it, we used the demo. Some background: we have a job that was started on Premiere 6.5 Windows (for some reason?!) and we need to get it into FCP via an EDL. We had copies of Premiere 6.0 and Premiere Pro 1.0 - neither of which would do the job (6.0 wouldn't open the project and Pro 1.0 won't export EDLs). There's no reason why CS3 for Mac shouldn't be able to read older Premiere projects if the Windows version can - surely they have the same file IO? If not, it's a really boneheaded move on Adobe's part.

EDIT: It's apparently been sorted now through the CS3 Windows demo. Sigh.

 

[Joel Kaye]

If not, it's a really boneheaded move on Adobe's part.

Glad you got it sorted out. Basically, moving from one NLE to another in the middle of a project is almost begging for trouble. I realize you didn't make that choice.

My brother is an editor in LA and he sets very strict rules on machines that are actively cutting shows. No updates, no nothing once a machine is working. If it works don't fix it. Easier for them with dedicated boxes - but it's a good tip for anyone on deadline.

 

[RivaiC]

Very true joelnet

 

[Cail Young]

Glad you got it sorted out. Basically, moving from one NLE to another in the middle of a project is almost begging for trouble. I realize you didn't make that choice.

Oh absolutely! I had a show i was cutting on FCP4 well into the era of FCP5 for this reason. Sometimes, though, you get a job and you have to make it work!

 

[Knot_2_late]

high-precision "YUV" mode is the 10-bit mode in FCP, other modes are 8-bit. Make sure your output codec supports 10-bit (otherwise you can't select that option) and enable it in your sequence settings!

Does FCP and Premiere come with all the necessary codecs to edit Red footage or do they need to be purchased or downloaded separately? This is my first post. Sorry if this is a basic question.

Thanks

 

[Joel Kaye]

Does FCP and Premiere come with all the necessary codecs to edit Red footage or do they need to be purchased or downloaded separately? This is my first post. Sorry if this is a basic question.

FCP is certainly the preferred NLE - but I "believe" it's an update away from Redcode raw support. Premiere should be able to edit via a quicktime reference file. Not sure... FCP is the preferred route.

One way or another you can edit RED originated footage in any NLE.