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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Definitive AP vs. FCP Thread

i'm not a mac'er - i have no idea about the FCP settings .. i hired the editor ( 3 weeks) .. i asked if it had to render everything - and got a almost everything ...

at the same time there was another FCP editor in another room ... just happened to be that the director normally uses sony Vegas ( so do i ) and we both complained about the rendering over lunch ....
also we complained about the drop anything in the TL and it plays - well that is true ( sort of ) but again it has to convert/render files ... i had sent the editor QT clips rendered using sorensen 3 ... he said he couldn't play/cut the files and had to render them out as DVCpro files = 10 hrs of rendering ....
he said they would play in QT player but not in FCP - so you got me ???
at the end he rendered out QT files using DVCpro codec and i could not play them on PC ... he then rendered out as QT using sorensen 3 and they played on PC ....
 
Create Easy Setups in FCP and you will find life to be much better when editing. For those not familiar, Easy Setups are essentially a way to setup your projects so that any new sequences you create, footage you capture, and export all match the appropriate settings that they should. I find that people who are not experienced FCP editors make the mistake of creating sequences that do not match their video specs and they end up having to render everything and then wonder why. Also, you need to check your realtime settings and make sure they are set appropriately for your system's capabilities.

I've edited on Premiere, Avid (just about all of them), FCP, Vegas, and even iMovie and I have to say they all have strengths and weaknesses. If you could combine the strengths from all of these apps, you'd have one heck of an editing system. But keep in mind, what some consider strengths, others consider weakness. So you have to try them out on your own to really get a sense of what they are capable of, and how comfortable you feel editing on each system.

Steve
 
Cross dissolve and color corrector should definitely be real-time. If it's not, then their FCP project is setup incorrectly (see the tips in other posts).

It's also part of the handful of effects that actually play back real-time. The color corrector is also not real-time if you touch the limit effect controls (in particular, the blur). So it really just depends.
 
sven said:
Some things are still missing badly in premiere like the things you mentioned not being able doing some functions for several clips at once. This is a thing I've never understood.
If you're ever editing some footage, even if you're not experienced in doing it,
it may not take you more then 15 min to find out this features seem to be so
regularly needed all the time , that i don't see any excuse of the programmers being obligated to be aware of their failing on this subject, and then I ask myself if they have ever tried to edit something for real or were they only preparing some projects for tradeshows and codec testings??
Click to expand...

I have this feeling too, with those small details. It's sooo obvious, FCP already had this in many earlier versions, and still, it seems that the people of Premiere don't realize that this SMALL detail really eats extra time if you're editing in comparison with FCP. You are completely right: I really ask myself: have they edited a long project with it? Then this would obviously come up quickly?


pixelchef said:
I just completed a 68-minute project in FCS2, no rendering required for cross-dissolves, 3-way color corrector, no render for DVX, Sony HC1(1080i), Canon HV02(1080i) on the same timeline either - they all played very nicely together. FCP6 is very intuitive as well (for me). Mac G5 Dual 1.8Mhz, 3.5 GB RAM.
Click to expand...

Thanks

ChristopherKenworthy said:
Are you sure your Sequence Settings were correct? FCP should work in real time for this. Even on a macbook, you should be able to do HDV in realtime, easily, never mind DV. Make sure your Sequence Settings are exactly right. If they are, I'd be getting your laptop looked at.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

But looking at Donatello's problem, and my early experience with FCP 4 (long time ago, I know) was that it had to render before you could view it.
In FCS 2, with correct real time settings and stuff, and even with more advanced features exept that dissolves and 3 way collor corrector, can you see the results immediately, BEFORE the render?
I don't care if you have to render afterwards, but PREVIEWING it realtime is pretty normal at Premiere Pro, and I wouldn't want to miss that when switching over to a more powerful system (hardware wise).
It's also impossible to judge if a change you made to your footage is correct (length, colour,...) if you can't see it at forehand?
(It seems you can do this, at Color too, but I just want to make sure)

Thank you,
 
donatello said:
also we complained about the drop anything in the TL and it plays - well that is true ( sort of ) but again it has to convert/render files ... i had sent the editor QT clips rendered using sorensen 3 ... he said he couldn't play/cut the files and had to render them out as DVCpro files = 10 hrs of rendering ....
Click to expand...

This is clearly a case of ignorance either on your part or your editor's part. Sorenson is not an editable codec - would you expect h.264 or encrypted DVD files to play back directly on an FCP timeline?

Similarly with your playback of the final product - this is either an underpowered PC or that Windows Quicktime just doesn't support the DVCPRO codec family - I've never tried.

Both of these serve to highlight the absolute necessity of ensuring all involved in the post production process are aware of all the technical requirements - such as codecs and delivery formats. Preferable nailing these down before you even start shooting.

And finally, once and for all, as long as your system meets the minimum specs for Final Cut:

A Macintosh computer with a 1.25GHz or faster PowerPC G4, PowerPC G5, Intel Core Duo, or Intel Xeon processor
1GB of RAM
An AGP or PCI Express Quartz Extreme graphics card (Final Cut Studio is not compatible with integrated Intel graphics processors)
A display with 1024-by-768 resolution or higher
Mac OS X v10.4.9 or later
QuickTime 7.1.6 or later
A DVD drive for installation
Click to expand...

You will have at the very LEAST realtime cross dissolves and basic 3way CC - the secondary controls may not be realtime on the very slowest hardware. Furthermore, the new Dynamic RT allows effect preview at sub-native framerate and quality if necessary to maintain playback. Higher levels of hardware will enable more realtime effects.
 
"Sorenson is not an editable codec - would you expect h.264 or encrypted DVD files to play back directly on an FCP timeline?"

YES , seeing how that has been the normal for years in my NLE .. when i'm on the road i make a exact copy of DV clips rendered out to QT sorensen 3 or WMV - edit them and then later go back to the AVI clips ( by hiding the QT files then telling Vegas to use the avi files instead) ...
YES on DVD VOB's drop into TL - what's the problem ??

again i'm not a mac'er/FCP ... i hired a editor that uses FCP so i can only ask questions and have to go with the answers i'm given ... next time i'll ask about
"Easy Setups are essentially a way to setup your projects so that any new sequences you create, footage you capture, and export all match the appropriate settings that they should"
 
Just bear in mind that my project's deliverable was an SD DVD. HD-level editing and authoring and such really do need as fast a system as you can afford - time=money!

znelson said:
sven:
pixelchef: I would've expected needing a beefier system, like a dual 2.8 or quad core. I guess the hardware has finally crossed the line where even a reasonable configuration is all that's needed now. No need for super over the top $10K multi-cores and whatnot when a 2GHz box runs the software just fine. That's awesome news.
Click to expand...
 
Unless you are just cutting and nothing else (like no cc, or other effects) then a dual 2.0 ghz machine probably isn't going to be enough. We're talking about 4k! Even if you could get away with just editing proxies at .5 or 1k, the data rates and what people expect are only going to go up. It's not a great idea to buy a bare minimum system.
 
kino: I hear you but say we're talking about 27M/sec RedCode and not 320M/sec uncompressed. In that case I gotta believe you don't "need" the horsepower. Of course it would be nice.
 
znelson, are you planning on doing _any_ kind of compositing at all, or just bare-bones editing?
 
donatello said:
"Sorenson is not an editable codec - would you expect h.264 or encrypted DVD files to play back directly on an FCP timeline?"

YES , seeing how that has been the normal for years in my NLE .. when i'm on the road i make a exact copy of DV clips rendered out to QT sorensen 3 or WMV - edit them and then later go back to the AVI clips ( by hiding the QT files then telling Vegas to use the avi files instead) ...
YES on DVD VOB's drop into TL - what's the problem ??
Click to expand...

What NLE cuts WMV natively with no re-render? I'd be very interested to know... There is absolutely no NLE that will read an encrypted VOB because it's encrypted. Point is here that FCP wouldn't require you to recompress from DV to cut on the road - if you had storage issues you should recompress to OfflineRT (which is a specific Motion JPEG setting allowing FCP realtime effects).

again i'm not a mac'er/FCP ... i hired a editor that uses FCP so i can only ask questions and have to go with the answers i'm given ...
Click to expand...

All the better to ensure your editor is completely aware of what it is exactly you'll be giving them and is experienced enough to know what FCP is going to want.

Easy setups will help, but it still won't make FCP edit Sorenson or WMV videos.
 
"What NLE cuts WMV natively with no re-render?"

sony Vegas has been cutting WMV ( & sorensen 3 )for years ( i think back to Vegas 2 ) - drop it into TL and hit play and edit away ......

"no NLE that will read an encrypted VOB because it's encrypted"

NLE's need a little help - you use anyDVD ( legal to buy) ... then you drag or import the vob to TL in vegas ( it plays better if you copy the VOB to a hard drive then to TL ) .... for other apps sometimes changing the extension from .vob to .mpg will do it ...
 
donatello said:
NLE's need a little help - you use anyDVD ( legal to buy) ... then you drag or import the vob to TL in vegas ( it plays better if you copy the VOB to a hard drive then to TL ) .... for other apps sometimes changing the extension from .vob to .mpg will do it ...
Click to expand...

Now who's making excuses for their NLE?

My point was not so much the specific examples but that you needed to discuss codec choice with your editor before you started throwing Sorenson at him - it isn't FCP's fault you needed to spend 10 hours rendering to another format, it's a lack of discussion. The same would have happened if you were running Avid and tried to directly import .mov DV files, or if you tried to throw Prores at any Windows NLE - there are limits to every NLE and you should have either known about them or asked about them.
 
cailyoung said:
...or if you tried to throw Prores at any Windows NLE...
Click to expand...

and any osx nle besides fcs 2.
our fcp doesn´t play back pro res as well.
 
" it's a lack of discussion"

i did discuss it before hand and editor said sorensen 3 was good ... so based on the editor not knowing he could set up FCP so it didn't have to pre-render every frame and not knowing FCP can't cut sorensen 3 ..i'd say it's more lack of knowledge on the editors part ...

i did send the same files to a place that has Avid adrenaline system and the editor said there was no problems ...
 
donatello said:
i did send the same files to a place that has Avid adrenaline system and the editor said there was no problems ...
Click to expand...

He said there were no problems, which is true, but I guarantee that Adrenaline spent a good chunk of time transcoding your footage to the Avid Meridien codec.

i'd say it's more lack of knowledge on the editors part ...
Click to expand...

So stop blaming FCP.
 
Since RedCine's release is imminent, many of the workflow questions posed will soon be removed from the realm of speculation. I expect that we will have hard numbers rather quickly for a number of different NLE solutions.
 
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