Dear Jim

[Ed Watkins]

Well put Jt.
A calm voice is good to hear.

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

I thing that they can use parts from trade R1 s and put it in new EPIC Why not.

don't think so but in that case EPIC buyers should know that... and should ask to pay EPIC as a partially refurbished camera.

 

[Dj Joofa]

I think Red themselves did not realize in the past that a greater modularity will come at the expense of making obsolescence obsolete irrelevant. Red started as an idea, and with such a radical idea, it is always difficult to do full homework. On top of that, it appears to me that the public faces of their team here on RedUser, those whom we see posting mostly, have generally software background. I don't know how much hardware advice (including on-board electronics and sensor level design that are two different things) was given to them at the start of the project by a veteran who has designed hardware by hand before.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Well stated Mr. Coleman. I love what RED released today and I am looking forward to an Epic. I also think that RED should have provided some path to a Scarlet. Otherwise some people will just end up as glorified beta testers.

 

[jtcoleman]

There is absolutely no way to render obsolescence obsolete, none. If I purchase an Epic system next year I'm fully aware that there could be a technology from Red or from someone else who I don't even see on the horizon that could come along and make it worthless in a couple years, that's just how the world works.

I respectfully disagree, Ethan. A modular approach, such as the one they announced today, provides your customers a path to keep their package ahead of the curve without ever having to trash it and start over. At the end of the day, that's all I want.

And I have to believe that RED disagrees, too, or else they wouldn't have used this tagline. Jim doesn't strike me as the kind of fellow to use a tagline promising something that he knows to be misleading or impossible to achieve.

I believe in this company. I understand they need to make money, and I want nothing more than to remain a loyal, long-term customer. My plea was simply a way to express my hope that they want the same thing.


JT Coleman
Austin, TX
Red #396

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

I also think that RED should have provided some path to a Scarlet. Otherwise some people will just end up as glorified beta testers.

much you would pay for that?

 

[T. vd Hoff]

It may seem this way now but I think you need to breath a little and step for a sec.
As I have said before, I am still using and making money on 10 year old equipment, and my clients are very happy. Red is a tool and you need to use the tools you have to the best of your ability. Your Clients are not going to say"Hey what is this Red One piece of Crap we need to shoot with Scarlet!"

I also think you need to hold judgement on the company till we see exactly how the mysterium upgrade will cost. It jus might be affordable for you.

I had a similar experience with Panasonic. I bought an HDX900 Last December and then
they announce a new Better HD camera at NAB 4 months later for about half the money.
Am I pissed? no, I am doing great with what I have and my clients could not be happier.
There have been only 2 times this year that someone who wants to shoot HD has asked for a specific brand camera. Bottom line is I make the pretty pictures and client is happy.

It might seem wrong to you now but I think you will realize what a great camera you have and it will serve you well for many years.

Hope this helps.

Well put. Your skills come first, your tools second. The tools you have are and will remain of excellent value for a long time.
Secondly, RED won't leave their early adopters out in the cold. Wait till they provide you with solid details when the time comes to upgrade to an actual scarlett or epic.

Finally, I don't consider it fair to want to trade in your R1 for any Epic system. As the specs are now, the Scarlett S35 comes closest to the actual system you have now. With a full refund of the body, that leaves you with 10k of budget to replace obsolete' parts. Your lenses will remain usefull, as will your EVF, LCD and batteries. So you probably will be able to even get some extras for that cash. All in all I'd say this already makes for a very generous upgrade path for R1 owners.

Just realize that the Epic is not the next R1. If you want better specs (even though Scarlett S35 already gives you some) then it would be perfectly reasonable you'd pay the price for it.

 

[Ethan Cooper]

I respectfully disagree, Ethan. A modular approach, such as the one they announced today, provides your customers a path to keep their package ahead of the curve without ever having to trash it and start over.

You'll always have to trash your wonderful technology in a few years, modular or not. Those CF modules, they'll be replaced by larger storage options some day. That 1080p evf, it'll bow out to one with more resolution. That 28K Epic brain, it'll give way to a sensor with much higher dynamic range or lower power consumption or something. The entire modular design they're using, it'll have to be overhauled when it's discovered that their connection system doesn't have the proper pin configuration to bring some new technology into the loop, or is prone to failure or whatever comes down the road that renders it useless. All things get old and need replacing. That's my point. You can't stay ahead of the curve and what is true today may not be tomorrow.

I do agree that the R1 owners who can't afford the Epic upgrade should be allowed some type of option, but even when you switch to the modular system don't go around thinking it'll be around in 5 years. Digital technology is disposable. It's not like the old days of film cameras when the only thing that was upgraded was the film stock itself.

That's just how I see it.
________
NEWARK ASSEMBLY

 

[MiguelOrtega]

With a full refund of the body, that leaves you with 10k of budget to replace obsolete' parts. Your lenses will remain usefull, as will your EVF, LCD and batteries.

thats with the assumption that u can trade in for a scarlett...they never said u can do that. the full refund is for epic ONLY not scarlett

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

You'll always have to trash your wonderful technology in a few years, modular or not.

Yes but being modular means you don't have to trash everything. That aproach makes the product life cycle much much longher.

 

[T. vd Hoff]

thats with the assumption that u can trade in for a scarlett...they never said u can do that. the full refund is for epic ONLY not scarlett

*oops* My bad. Well, in that case I'd feel it would be just if RED would allow a scarlett S35 upgrade path with (close to) full refund too.

 

[Jeremy Newmark]

thats with the assumption that u can trade in for a scarlett...they never said u can do that. the full refund is for epic ONLY not scarlett

"A RED ONE owner has several choices.

1. A RED ONE owner can keep the RED ONE and upgrade to the Mysterium-X sensor for a TBD price... just as we promised.

2. A RED ONE owner can purchase any EPIC and trade in their RED ONE for full $17,500 value towards the purchase... just as we promised.

3. A RED ONE owner can choose to keep their RED ONE and receive a one-time credit of 12% on a Scarlet system purchase."

Taken from post #5 here. http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=320537#post320537

 

[REDneck]

Obsolescence is relative. Some people are obviously taking it to mean "anything but the best." What is being offered by Red is ways to improve a camera that essentially was debuted a couple years ago. You can trade it in... you can sell the body and keep the accessories for a different body... you can upgrade the sensor. This is the opposite of the obsolescence-for-profit marketing techniques of the companies Red is up against. Panasonic, Sony, Canon --- they all advance their products at regular intervals with no support for loyalists, requiring you to re-buy to stay current. Not only that, but they release the same products over and over again with minor tweaks instead of innovating because their development is subordinate to their marketing machine.

So, Red comes along and offers ways for loyalists --- current owners who want to stick with Red --- to stay current and what happens? They get slammed (tactfully, granted) for not going all the way. I don't blame Jim if he's pissed off by this response. "Rendering obsolescence obsolete" the way some of you are talking about it means 1) never developing a superior product or 2) refunding any sale at any time forever in case of the owner wanting a different Red product. Either one would kill any company dead.

So, my final analysis: some degree of obsolescence is the price of progress. But if you think about it, Red has your back more than any other camera manufacturer out there. And don't forget --- Red One is the only Red camera you can take out and shoot with today.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Obsolescence is relative. Some people are obviously taking it to mean "anything but the best." What is being offered by Red is ways to improve a camera that essentially was debuted a couple years ago. You can trade it in... you can sell the body and keep the accessories for a different body... you can upgrade the sensor. This is the opposite of the obsolescence-for-profit marketing techniques of the companies Red is up against. Panasonic, Sony, Canon --- they all advance their products at regular intervals with no support for loyalists, requiring you to re-buy to stay current. Not only that, but they release the same products over and over again with minor tweaks instead of innovating because their development is subordinate to their marketing machine.

So, Red comes along and offers ways for loyalists --- current owners who want to stick with Red --- to stay current and what happens? They get slammed (tactfully, granted) for not going all the way. I don't blame Jim if he's pissed off by this response. "Rendering obsolescence obsolete" the way some of you are talking about it means 1) never developing a superior product or 2) refunding any sale at any time forever in case of the owner wanting a different Red product. Either one would kill any company dead.

So, my final analysis: some degree of obsolescence is the price of progress. But if you think about it, Red has your back more than any other camera manufacturer out there. And don't forget --- Red One is the only Red camera you can take out and shoot with today.

Do you own a RED One? These Scarlet wannabe users are starting to irritate me. Perhaps we really do need a board for owners.

 

[T. vd Hoff]

Keep your cool Andrae. Everybody has been posting supportive comments.

 

[Brian Timmons]

I respect and admire the innovations RED has released over this short period of time. One really gets a feeling that their sense of purpose REALLY IS to change the world.

I have absolutely no problem with that as long as they continue to take care of customers who are not necessarily invested in next "latest, greatest" development.

A key decision for me to invest in the RED ONE was the upgradability of that camera so I would have an investment that survives the long haul. So far RED HAS made it clear that they plan to honor that with the optional sensor upgrades.

My only concern from there is that some of the "modular" internal processing of the camera is also optioned for an upgrade to help realize the full potential of the new imaging chips(higher frame rates; etc).

Brian

 

[REDneck]

Do you own a RED One? These Scarlet wannabe users are starting to irritate me. Perhaps we really do need a board for owners.

No, I don't, which is why my opinion is less emotional than yours. I'm sorry you don't like what I'm saying.

 

[planet e]

What is being offered by Red is ways to improve a camera that essentially was debuted a couple years ago.

What is irritating me is ill-informed inaccuracies such as this. RED did not debut a couple of years ago. My first one was delivered in March, and I paid for it in advance, to insure the quickest possible delivery. And I was in the original batch of reservation holders, the very first. We are talking about a camera that is 6 months old becoming, as of today, legacy technology. Moore's law to the second power.

I don't even know why people feel compelled to weigh in on what RED ONE owners should not or don't deserve. I am very grateful to this company in many, many ways. I have benefited in ways that those of you who have remained sidelined will not understand until you have a RED camera of your own. I get that, I got that, I'm psyched and grateful about it.

No one is asking for a $17.5 credit, what is under discussion is the possibility of adding a SCARLET crossgrade to an already generous package. And even the possibility of paying a little on top to get it....just wanting not to have to start over, to be able to enter the modular upgrade pathway, without having to purchase a new camera entirely, after such a short time. Or to upgrade to EPIC, which may be more camera than we need.

In essence, we are asking for the opportunity to spend more money with the company we love, because that is what will happen, to buy more modules, to add more parts.

 

[Ben Holmes]

I don't mean this to sound trite - it's meant as a helpful suggestion.

Don't RED one owners have an upgrade path to Scarlet? Order a scarlet (which you will get before everyone else) then sell your RED one to someone who wants an Epic (and get one faster as a RED one owner?)

Doesn't that leave everyone happy? Sell the RED One for a few hundred dollars less if you want a quick sale even...

Ben

PS - in the meantime (assumed to be 9 months) have a RED One effectively for free...

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

I'm sorta thinking this way:

I buy the $2,500 Scarlet, and pop on some groovy C mount primes and have a fabulously sharp mini camera that I can put in places that the full sized R1 won't go. I get 12% off on this, so it's pretty inexpensive. Car mounts, cranes, head mounted cams, pole cams, my remote head and crane, Steadicam. C mount primes are great and really cheap. I get increased depth of field which will help in some situations, like letting actors move around more without going in and out of focus. Also works as a covert cam for a lot of that type of work. Clamp that sucker to the A pillar in cars - solves a lot of trouble.

The, I get get the sensor upgrade for my R1, which will probably make it function as well as the S35 Scarlet, where I get increased DR and also higher FPS, I will bet. I'm guessing $2,000 for this.

So I spend just over $4k and I now have TWO fabulous HD cameras! Wahoo!

BUT - if I get a lucrative job that warrants it, then I spring another $10,500 and get the S35 Epic. Don't think this is likely.

Don't want any FF35 cams - just too hard to keep folks in focus at T2 or even 2.8/4