Dci Output

[Mark L. Pederson]

You're all pretty. You can all go to the prom. ;-)

Yeah .. remember Christine? Prom Night? Maybe not such a good idea.

 

[roryhinds]

hey I've been in London for 15 years - I am now a whingeing pom for sure.

Yes you're correct I need to find a friendly developer to get the DCDM part implemented or "assimilated"

 

[Lucas Wilson]

If Scratch is able to work natively with REDCODE RAW then why is the data rate so high? Is it because you have to render into Uncompressed? Is there a workflow for low budget RED RAW shooters that could be cheaper but still make sense for a post house like yours?

Incidentally are you ready to talk prices yet? inch:

To be clear - the data rate for REDCODE RAW remains the same. It is not 320 or 1312 or any other really high number of MB/s. The numbers that 4KHUB talks about are RGB files - like DPX.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Until the DCI release the software that makes the DCDM we're forced to work out of house, which is crazy as I'm sure DCDM encoding and encryption is a simple script but the fat cats want control.

I completely agree with mmost on the discussion about DCDM, DSM, XYZ, ABCD, etc.

In LA, our customer base spans the gamut from small 2-man boutique shops to places like EFilm and Technicolor. I watch the bigger shops do DCDMs, and it is a b**tch. Even if you have the specialized hardware, it is a difficult and intensive process filled with possibility of error. And it is for a tiny market. Is it a growing market? Yes. Will it take over the universe in the next year? Uh... no.

Like Mike said, the DCI spec is public and available for anyone to read. Take a minute (well, take a few hours) and read it and all the addendums that go along with it. It is not a "why don't manufacturers just do this" kind of thing. To do DCDMs right takes an engineering team, dedicated hardware designers, software designers, release engineers, etc, etc.

And, once you have "done" a DCDM, then you get into the legal world of the Studios. You want to go head to head with Warner Bros. legal when the encryption part of your DCDM doesn't function correctly, and material is pirated? But, that would never happen. Because the Studios are smarter than to let small one-man shops do their DCDMs, because of all the reasons that Mike and I have listed.

I am a frequent guest at the ASC Tech Committee meetings where minutiae of the DCI spec are discussed. There's no conspiracy and no cabal of Illuminati gathered throwing bones to determine our fates. To be honest, the Studios would MUCH rather never have had to deal with DCI. The film model is set in stone, requires no new investment, the profit models are established, everybody knows what happens where, and everybody is real happy.

You're a filmmaker. Do that and do it really really well. If you decide on a career change and want to be a Deliverables Engineer, then I'll be glad to hook you up with EFilm and Modern...

Cheers,

Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Like Mike said, the DCI spec is public and available for anyone to read....

By the way... the public spec is available at www.dcimovies.com.

The 1.1 spec just came out recently and is available at
http://www.dcimovies.com/DCI_DCinema_System_Spec_v1_1.pdf

It's 158 pages.

Lucas

 

[roryhinds]

Hi Lucas

So will Scratch have the ability to do the DCDM in the future?

I'm not going up against the studios as they will always have there own houses to handle the encryption and securing the content.

I'm talking about the indy who has a low budget film that he has organised a screened in a DCI cinema. It would be great to be able to deliver a drive to the cinema had have it screen with minimal fuss.

And with more and more cinemas going digital we're going to be encountering the DCI DCDM issue a lot more.

Can Scratch create the DCDM or would it be just too much hassle?
My thinking is its a easy encode and organise file structure thing as you've done the hard work in Finishing the project off at 4k already.

 

[M Most]

Hi Lucas

So will Scratch have the ability to do the DCDM in the future?
.....
My thinking is its a easy encode and organise file structure thing as you've done the hard work in Finishing the project off at 4k already.

Once again, you need to read the spec. Organization and file structure has very little to do with what a DCP is. Creating a DCP is all about JPEG2000 compression, conversion to XYZ color space, MXF wrappers, integration and MXF wrapping of audio elements, creation of subtitle tracks, key delivery messages, playlists, and some other issues I won't go into here. Scratch is a post production tool that does image file manipulation, conforming, and color correction. None of those things have anything to do with what it takes to create a DCP, which is a specialized step that requires specialized equipment and software to support it. Not to mention that the color correction for a digital cinema package needs to be screened and checked in a DCI compliant screening theater if you want any kind of accuracy. I seriously doubt that many people here have access to that.

Just because something happens to be digital doesn't mean you can do it with anything else that happens to be digital. You seem to think that making a DCP is like recording to a videotape. It isn't. If you want to be able to screen cheaply and simply, the route to that is HD video. And, just FYI, only Warner Bros. has its own DI facility. All of the studios (including Warners) use post facilities to create the deliverables for digital cinema. You have just as much access to those facilities as they do.

 

[Rocket]

4KHub you should really have a look at Baselight it is one of the most comprehensive colouring tools out there... way up there with Luster.

Well, word got out that we were in the market and I have been getting calls from Filmlight. They are so desperate to get a Baselight in S.A. that they are practically ready to give it away.

I just don't think they can put a Baselight offer on the table that will match the cost of the Scratch system. I don't think it can be done, and the feature set and capability of Scratch is right up there with Baselight and Lustre, no questions about that. If you can get someone from Assimilate in the UK to give you a full demo, you will be blown away.

The bottom line for me is profitability, and that is the ratio between what it costs and what rates I can charge. The market here in South Africa is not going to pay Baselight rates, but Scratch... that's a different story, it's affordable.

Rich

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Hi Lucas

So will Scratch have the ability to do the DCDM in the future?

I'm not going up against the studios as they will always have there own houses to handle the encryption and securing the content.

I'm talking about the indy who has a low budget film that he has organised a screened in a DCI cinema. It would be great to be able to deliver a drive to the cinema had have it screen with minimal fuss.

And with more and more cinemas going digital we're going to be encountering the DCI DCDM issue a lot more.

Can Scratch create the DCDM or would it be just too much hassle?
My thinking is its a easy encode and organise file structure thing as you've done the hard work in Finishing the project off at 4k already.

Rory,

Short answer is - you can never predict the future, but I doubt it. It is not our market, not our expertise, and not what we're interested in. I want to get seriously into encryption technology like I want a hole in my head.

And in my opinion, you should forget the "indy who needs to screen in a DCI cinema" thing. You can't just walk into a DCI theatre and hand them a DCDM on a drive. Doesn't work that way. They'll just look at you funny.

If you get to the point where you actually *need* a DCDM for mass distribution, you will also at that point have a Studio backing you and you will not need to concern yourself with things like that, and can concentrate on making movies.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Ryan Sims]

Hi Lucas

I'm talking about the indy who has a low budget film that he has organised a screened in a DCI cinema. It would be great to be able to deliver a drive to the cinema had have it screen with minimal fuss.

And with more and more cinemas going digital we're going to be encountering the DCI DCDM issue a lot more.

Digital projection is not DCI. All of the high end digital cinema projectors I have worked with have a some standard interface that would allow you to plug-in your movie from a player you bring to a screening. An example would be the Christie CP2000 that has single link and dual link HD-SDI inputs. You walk in with an HD player with your movie on it and you'll probably be able to show your movie. The trickier part is not video, but audio. Do you want surround sound? Then you'll need to use whatever the theaters SS decoder is (Dolby is pretty common). Most audio decoders have some aux input to jack your audio in. The best thing is to know what the theater equipment is before hand so you can bring the right tools a adapters to make it work.

The hard part is getting the theater owner to let you break their playback system so you can show your movie. Some places are now planning for these type screenings, others are not.

Even if the theater still only shows 35mm prints, many now have a nice video projector as well that plays commercials before the film. These small projectors have component, s-video and composite video inputs that could be used as well to show your film from even a home DVD player.

Of course, none of this matters if the theater won't let you use their projection/audio equipment.

DCI is all about encryption. You will not be able to get your movie on their DCI player. Bring your own player. You may even have to bring your own projector and sound system.

And please, check you movie on your player before the night of the screening.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

...DCI is all about encryption....

</grumble> No... no it's not.

The very first paragraph of the DCI homepage states,

"...DCI's primary purpose is to establish and document voluntary specifications for an open architecture for digital cinema that ensures a uniform and high level of technical performance, reliability and quality control."​

Is part of that encryption? Absolutely. But DCI is not "all about encryption." Also, there are no "DCI Players." There are DCP Players and Servers. DCI is a company. DCP is the name of the Package that is delivered to the theatre.

From 2.1.1.4 of the spec...

"Once the DCDM is compressed, encrypted and packaged for distribution, it is considered to be the Digital Cinema Package or DCP. This term is used to distinguish the package from the raw collection of files known as the DCDM. Shown below is a typical flow for Digital Cinema. When the DCP arrives at the theater, it is eventually unpackaged, decrypted and decompressed to create the DCDM*, where DCDM* image is visually indistinguishable from the original DCDM image.

DSM → DCDM → DCP → DCDM* → Image and Sound"
​

</grumble>

Lucas
-----
Master of Acronyms (MOA)
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[M Most]

</grumble> No... no it's not.

Grumbling aside, Lucas is absolutely correct. If you look at the DCI spec, it is concerned with a number of things, security being only one component - an important one to be sure, but only one. If you read the spec, section 1.2 describes the scope of the document, and by inference, the DCI's work. the specific sections are Digital Cinema Distribution Master, Compression, Packaging, Transport, Theater Systems, Projection, and Security. All of these topics have equal importance, and the purpose of the document is to describe and standardize a system by which motion pictures can be delivered to projection venues at a quality exceeding that of 35mm prints, and with better flexibility in terms of sound, subtitles, and theater automation for presentation with pre-show materials, trailers, and the like. It is a very detailed blueprint that is intended to provide a framework that is valuable today and in the foreseeable future.

While projection from HD video can be quite good (certainly good enough for private screenings - it's used all the time now for previews of large studio pictures), the DCI spec provides a way to get the exact image that was seen in the DI theater to any theater that is properly set up for it. So it arguably provides a considerably better viewing and listening experience. For individual private screenings, however, it is a lot of trouble and expense to go through, particularly if you don't have distribution for your project. When you sell it to a distributor, then you can deal with making it as good as it can be. Then it will be money well spent.

 

[Ryan Sims]

Encryption and DCI

Encryption and DCI

I stand corrected on DCI and Encryption. I have not needed to look at the spec. I was just relaying what I had heard from engineers that are building a JPEG 2000 DCI compliant player. Maybe the decryption is the most complex part of the design and gives them the most headaches?

 

[Rocco Schult]

Filmlight are so desperate to get a Baselight into S.A. they want to offer me a complete Baselight at the same price we are paying for the 4K Scratch. So far with us, Scratch will have 3 systems, Baselight a big fat zero.

Regard that the base system you get on a Baselight HD alone costs more than the basic package of Scratch. Have you ever seen a BLHD ? Thats a mean machine with a brilliant hardware interface. So if you include such inadequate comparisons, give the specs. BL1 ? BL HD ? Blackboard ? Peaches and apples ?

Well, word got out that we were in the market and I have been getting calls from Filmlight. They are so desperate to get a Baselight in S.A. that they are practically ready to give it away.

I just don't think they can put a Baselight offer on the table that will match the cost of the Scratch system. I don't think it can be done, and the feature set and capability of Scratch is right up there with Baselight and Lustre, no questions about that. If you can get someone from Assimilate in the UK to give you a full demo, you will be blown away.

The bottom line for me is profitability, and that is the ratio between what it costs and what rates I can charge. The market here in South Africa is not going to pay Baselight rates, but Scratch... that's a different story, it's affordable.

Rich

While you seem to be very proud of Baselights alleged obviousness in need of selling a system that you have to print it, you're right with the profitability. A cheaper system has a higher potential of profitability.
I worked with both systems, admittedly more on Baselight, and both systems are excellent powermachines with different approaches in workflow and their need of base hardware. It took me 2 years with several attempts before I got the clue how clever Scratch is - indeed in an excellent demo in London not so long ago with a highly motivated demo artist.
(Btw regards to Bruce, 'the African' ;-)
Both systems have earned their respect, especially the teams behind it, and both have excellent staff behind them.

 

[Rocco Schult]

..I'm talking about the indy who has a low budget film that he has organised a screened in a DCI cinema. It would be great to be able to deliver a drive to the cinema had have it screen with minimal fuss.

You walk in with an HD player with your movie on it and you'll probably be able to show your movie. The trickier part is not video, but audio....The hard part is getting the theater owner to let you break their playback system so you can show your movie. Some places are now planning for these type screenings, others are not.

You're my man Ryan. Exactly my experience.
And for those Indy's, in the desperate need of showing on their own (and I admit, sometimes that has to be done), get an HD output [player, e.g. Sony JH3] and connect it to the beamer. Done.
Might not be DCI spec, but still blows you away. More or less what Phantom Menace was. HD, digitally projected.