DaVinci

[M Most]

O it's not a question if he has them... I know at Plastercity they had a few. The question is will he keep investing into Scratch or will he now invest into Resolve. If he continues to invest in Scratch (say two-six months from now)... I would really value his reasoning on what feature sets compels that decision.

Once again, you're assuming that they're using Scratch as a color corrector. I wouldn't be so quick to make that assumption.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Once again, you're assuming that they're using Scratch as a color corrector. I wouldn't be so quick to make that assumption.

You are assuming that I think the only feature set of Davinci Resolve is color grading.

2004 - Resolve, a software based, resolution independent color grading system is launched. Resolve, developed specifically for the DI market, operates on conventional PC hardware but with optimized performance via da Vinci's own custom designed PC based PowerPlant acceleration and Transformer image translation hardware. Resolve offers color enhancement at the core but also features a highly advanced toolset including conforming, network file browsing, image resizing and formatting.

The TLC is a edit controller for telecines and VTRs. It gives accurate 2/3 editing. TLC 1 was originally made in Moorpark, California, later TLC was acquired by da Vinci and the TLC 2 was released. The da Vinci DUI 888 had an option to have a TLC built into it. If the TLC is not built in an external A/B switch box is needed to switch control between the TLC and other Color Controllers. Some versions had a separate CPU and Telecine interface rack.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Vinci_Systems#History_and_Technology

 

[M Most]

You are assuming that I think the only feature set of Davinci Resolve is color grading.

I don't know anyone who has ever used a Resolve as a standalone conforming system for anything other than another Resolve, because that's how it's basically set up. But I know a lot of facilities that have used Scratch for that purpose, feeding many different coloring systems. That's not to say that you absolutely couldn't use Resolve that way, but I don't know anyone who has, and I don't know how practical it would be (in other words, rendering with handles, outputting conform EDL's, those kind of things that Scratch is basically designed for).

 

[Andrae Palmer]

I don't know anyone who has ever used a Resolve as a standalone conforming system for anything other than another Resolve, because that's how it's basically set up. But I know a lot of facilities that have used Scratch for that purpose, feeding many different coloring systems. That's not to say that you absolutely couldn't use Resolve that way, but I don't know anyone who has, and I don't know how practical it would be (in other words, rendering with handles, outputting conform EDL's, those kind of things that Scratch is basically designed for).

Perhaps that was due to its prior very high price of 200k+.

 

[Stephen Lovett]

This seems worrying to me. If you need 2 graphics cards, then presumably you'd have to stick them both in the x16 lanes.

Where does this leave raid cards (ive got a RocketRaid 4322 in my second X16) SAS HBA card (for LTO-4) nevermind a REDRocket or video IO?

Also I recall seeing someone say over the past few days that Nvidia have now taken on responsibility for writing their own Mac drivers. Can anyone confirm this? Apple has done such a shitty job up till now that I would say that the usability of Resolve on the Mac depends on this being sorted out.

Hopefully it will also open up the GPU options on the Mac as well. They've been woefully lacking for far too long.. Mac'PRO' indeed! pppppfffffff!!!!!!!:rant:

Hi Adam,

I totally hear you. As to Resolve...

My first impressions were extremely positive, and I hope that Black Magic and their Resolve team can deliver. To my mind there hasn't been a great answer for a small shop like mine for a variety of reasons. I'll gladly spend the money if they can.

Mike makes some valid points however, and after several conversations with a variety of vendors, including a pretty deep conversation with some Nvidia engineers... I'm troubled.

The fact is, be it Apple or Nvidia or Adobe or whomever, the state of graphics drivers on the Mac basically sucks. My conversation with the Resolve rep seemed to firmly imply if not fully indicate that the multiple graphics card solution was a direction they are taking for the foreseeable future.

That's dumb. I really hope I'm wrong about that.

The Nvidia engineers will tell you to take the most advantage of a platform like the quadro, you are better off with one card, and using that one card to its best advantage.

In a tangentially related conversation I had with the Nvidia guys, I was ranting about the lack of a reasonable lut implementation on the Mac version of the Quadro (think a lut to make the gui monitor better match your grading monitor for example), and the Nvidia guys pretty much said, "hey we're there for them but Apple, Adobe, Reosolve, whomever just aren't willing to spend the money and do the work to really integrate the capabilities of the card into the OS or the specific app." The notable exception here is Smoke on Mac.

That might be finger pointing, but I know there are a ton of specific driver enhancements on the PC side for medical imaging and other vertical applications.

From a purely engineering perspective I prefer the approach of Autodesk here, but Smoke is really more than I really need right now, and I really don't care for the interface / user interaction model.

If BM continues to require two cards, it will significantly negatively impact overall system performance.

Moving your raid card to a slower lane will significantly reduce performance. To ball park it for you, I was seeing about 800 MB/s and moving down to the slower lane chopped off about 200 MB/s.

And of course then there is the same problem with Rocket.

So where did I net out?

Wait and see.

Apple could help us here, with a more robust PCIe implementation on the next MacPro... but I'm not holding my breath.

But from an end user perspective, it's hard to see the Resolve announcement as anything but good news.

Steve

 

[roryhinds]

talking about Scratch... what about the lawsuit against Assimilate by Autodesk for them copying the "swipe" menu thing...
Would you seriously invest $70k on software that runs on Windows only and the company has a court case against them so might not be around for much longer... and with Resolve at $1k its really is a no brainer.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

talking about Scratch... what about the lawsuit against Assimilate by Autodesk for them copying the "swipe" menu thing...
Would you seriously invest $70k on software that runs on Windows only and the company has a court case against them so might not be around for much longer... and with Resolve at $1k its really is a no brainer.

(sigh)

Rory - how about educating yourself before you post incendiary claims about someone's livelihood?

The latest filings regarding the legal action:

http://www.assimilateinc.com/AFO/latestfilings.html

In particular, the Answer and Counterclaim:

http://www.assimilateinc.com/AFO/pdfs/february2010/assimilate-answer-counterclaim.pdf

And when you actually own a 1K Resolve and can speak honestly about what it can and can't do (beyond a trade-show demo) let us know.

Lucas


Lucas Wilson
------------
Purveyor of Reality
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Lucas even if the 1k mac version can't do the job... Surely the 50k linux version with impresario can. That version has been around since 2004.

You are right about the other legal point though.

 

[dave_garcia]

We just bought a Scratch and I'm loving it. No regrets here.

The conform tools alone are kickass... The time and money they save us is pretty amazing. And frankly stuff out of scratch just looks really good. Everyone comments how sweet the colors in the footage are.

I've done AB grades with color and don't ask me why, but I get better looks out of scratch- much more filmic. There is definitely more control.

RedCineX- you can forget about it I'm my book for anything other then making offline pro-res for editing.

I look forward to checking out the resolve, but Scratch does a hell of a lot for a pretty good price.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

We just bought a Scratch and I'm loving it. No regrets here.

The conform tools alone are kickass... The time and money they save us is pretty amazing. And frankly stuff out of scratch just looks really good. Everyone comments how sweet the colors in the footage are.

I've done AB grades with color an don't ask me why, but I get better looks out of scratch- much more filmic. There is definitely more control.

RedCineX- you can forget about it I'm my book for anything other then making offline pro-res for editing.

I look forward to checking out the resolve, but Scratch does a he'll of a lot for a pretty good price.

usually they are the very first 3rd party who is fast enough to implement new red stuff.

be it build 20, build 30, flut, new CS, rocket

 

[Adam Jeal]

Hi Adam,

I totally hear you. As to Resolve...

My first impressions were extremely positive, and I hope that Black Magic and their Resolve team can deliver. To my mind there hasn't been a great answer for a small shop like mine for a variety of reasons. I'll gladly spend the money if they can.

Mike makes some valid points however, and after several conversations with a variety of vendors, including a pretty deep conversation with some Nvidia engineers... I'm troubled.

The fact is, be it Apple or Nvidia or Adobe or whomever, the state of graphics drivers on the Mac basically sucks. My conversation with the Resolve rep seemed to firmly imply if not fully indicate that the multiple graphics card solution was a direction they are taking for the foreseeable future.

That's dumb. I really hope I'm wrong about that.

The Nvidia engineers will tell you to take the most advantage of a platform like the quadro, you are better off with one card, and using that one card to its best advantage.

In a tangentially related conversation I had with the Nvidia guys, I was ranting about the lack of a reasonable lut implementation on the Mac version of the Quadro (think a lut to make the gui monitor better match your grading monitor for example), and the Nvidia guys pretty much said, "hey we're there for them but Apple, Adobe, Reosolve, whomever just aren't willing to spend the money and do the work to really integrate the capabilities of the card into the OS or the specific app." The notable exception here is Smoke on Mac.

That might be finger pointing, but I know there are a ton of specific driver enhancements on the PC side for medical imaging and other vertical applications.

From a purely engineering perspective I prefer the approach of Autodesk here, but Smoke is really more than I really need right now, and I really don't care for the interface / user interaction model.

If BM continues to require two cards, it will significantly negatively impact overall system performance.

Moving your raid card to a slower lane will significantly reduce performance. To ball park it for you, I was seeing about 800 MB/s and moving down to the slower lane chopped off about 200 MB/s.

And of course then there is the same problem with Rocket.

So where did I net out?

Wait and see.

Apple could help us here, with a more robust PCIe implementation on the next MacPro... but I'm not holding my breath.

But from an end user perspective, it's hard to see the Resolve announcement as anything but good news.

Steve

Hi Steve,

For the reasons I outlined, plus what you've just said - I've got serious doubts on how usable the this is actually going to be without more x16 PCI-e slots and decent drivers. If it can't work due to hardware/driver limitations then it would appear to be useless even at $995 + the cost of two Nvidia's.

Adam

 

[M Most]

Perhaps that was due to its prior very high price of 200k+.

DaVinci has always sold a separate Resolve Conform station for a much lower price.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

I'm curious to know what the price was for the conform station.

 

[Alex Hastings]

In general did anyone else out there think the big vendors where just Po'ed This year? Autodesk seemed very testy and sold nothing but Smoke OS X. Who's gonna buy Linux Smoke without double thinking the market or Lustre. Quantel's booth was teeny tiny compared to any year they have been there. That's kinda sad. Filmlight released some cool stuff, but still all eyes on Blackmagic.

I always felt like the big vendors had a good repore with the regular one man shops, but this year I really felt the tension. I felt like when I was talking to autodesk, they where like if you don't have 200k to buy a high end solution, either buy Smoke on OS X, or stop talking to me.

Those big vendors have reason to be pissed, but it's not my fault the market is changing. Fine I'll go buy a license of NUKE, since Flare will never be reased to Mac or any other platform. Fine I'll leave u big guys alone. But I'll have a NUKE and a couple DaVici's on my way out.

 

[shashbugu]

M Most,
1. Apple did not kill Shake, it was simply unprofitable.
2. Smoke is not that deep buddy. It does what it does well. Its an okay finishing tool, having to transcode everything to an uncompressed format in wiretap central is/was redundant.
3. Toxik was not selling well as networked compositor, it failed, its bundled free in maya.
4. Adobe builds scalable tools, you can build a $200,000, node based system around AE as a finishing tool.
5. A finishing system is just any system that can ingest multiple formats and sources uncompressed or native and render them out to a high res mastering format. It only makes sense to send your files to a DI facility to do this for you its much cheaper and smarter.
6. CS5 is no CS4, 64bit memory, 32 bit color fidelity, open architecture, the sky is the limit. There will be numerous plugins for finishing on that platform.
7.The words offline died with Nvidia cuda's birth.
8. Quantel, scratch, smoke, flame, baselight, speedgrade, resolve, Adobe etc etc all use the same Nvidia card for GPU playback. So the question is which of them have the tools you need?
9. We are redusers on this forum I really don't care what the folks on cinematographyusers.com or 35mmusers.com do for post production.
10. For $995 resolve can I import and color correct my Red footage in realtime, yes.
11. Can I edit my Red footage in Adobe PPro and Key, roto, add 3D elements and add explosions, in AE CS5 in real time, yes

So why do I need a $50,000 system.
These are the decisions we make.

 

[shashbugu]

In general did anyone else out there think the big vendors where just Po'ed This year? Autodesk seemed very testy and sold nothing but Smoke OS X. Who's gonna buy Linux Smoke without double thinking the market or Lustre. Quantel's booth was teeny tiny compared to any year they have been there. That's kinda sad. Filmlight released some cool stuff, but still all eyes on Blackmagic.

I always felt like the big vendors had a good repore with the regular one man shops, but this year I really felt the tension. I felt like when I was talking to autodesk, they where like if you don't have 200k to buy a high end solution, either buy Smoke on OS X, or stop talking to me.

Those big vendors have reason to be pissed, but it's not my fault the market is changing. Fine I'll go buy a license of NUKE, since Flare will never be reased to Mac or any other platform. Fine I'll leave u big guys alone. But I'll have a NUKE and a couple DaVici's on my way out.

My point exactly

 

[dave_garcia]

Yeah. That too. Not to mention I have a cell # for someone who can answer my questions when needed.

All of this is really good news; especially compared to my experience with Apple color.

 

[shashbugu]

(sigh)


And when you actually own a 1K Resolve and can speak honestly about what it can and can't do (beyond a trade-show demo) let us know.

True! we are not sure what it cant do.
But we know for sure what it can do. Its clear as daylight just by looking at several demos of the product in development. At $70k this thread will not be this long. At 1k all we need it to do is color in real time period.

 

[shashbugu]

Davinci resolve plus this
http://actfocused.com/

 

[M Most]

M Most,
1. Apple did not kill Shake, it was simply unprofitable.
2. Smoke is not that deep buddy. It does what it does well. Its an okay finishing tool, having to transcode everything to an uncompressed format in wiretap central is/was redundant.
3. Toxik was not selling well as networked compositor, it failed, its bundled free in maya.

I don't know why you feel the need to repeat what I said in a way that implies you're correcting me, but, whatever. Regarding Shake, Apple EOL'd it. You can call that killing it or call it unprofitable, the fact is that Apple ended it. I already said Toxic is shipping with both Maya and 3D Studio Max as Maya Composite. As for Smoke, you may not be impressed, but just about everyone who does high end commercial finishing for a living is. As are many finishing artists in most of the top facilities. But I'm not going to argue with you. All I'm trying to do is have an informative discussion, not try to top the person I'm discussing it with.

7.The words offline died with Nvidia cuda's birth.

The term offline will be around as long as people don't want to deal with large, high resolution files when they're doing creative editing that requires fluidity. So as long as finishing is at 2K, 4K, or higher resolutions, it will be a lot more practical to cut proxy versions prior to conforming the full version. This still applies even with "live debayering" because the need to do complex visual effects largely requires the ability to send out high resolution files as sources for those shots.

So why do I need a $50,000 system.

As long as you don't have clients who require efficiency, accuracy, technical correctness, and a fast turnround, and all for high resolution and sometimes stereoscopic projects, you don't, and I never said you did. But for those of us working with clients, and not just on our own material, especially sophisticated clients who expect all that I just mentioned, things like After Effects and Premiere Pro just don't cut it. But things like Smoke and "high end" (i.e., Linux) versions of Resolve do. As well as other tools. I know that those here who don't have that experience find it hard to understand why that's necessary, just as some of those here who work in that atmosphere every day are dismissive of the "lower end" toolsets. I put myself in the latter category as far as what I do for a living and who I do it with, but I do not put myself in the "dismissive" category. I do wish, though, that those who don't understand what the high end work requires would sometimes refrain from acting as if they do, and would also refrain from inferring that the more powerful systems are somehow a waste of money. Because for those that need them, they most certainly are not.

By the way, I thought we were using real names here. Is "shashbugu" your real name?