Data rates and storage options

[Brook Willard]

REDCODE RAW is RAW. Uncompressed RAW is RAW. We must be careful when using the term "RAW."

And one cannot edit RAW data without first debayering it. A RAW file has no image data.

 

[david farland]

Gee am I confused......

Redcine can take an array of RAW/RGB outputs from the camera, demosaic(if raw), color correct, resize/crop and then output to codec of choice? Is this all?
If you offlined in some low rez format, did all you edits/effects etc, can you then 'conform' to a Redcine format?
And to show how completely confused I am....Do you output this 'edited' Redcine file to some online format...dpx, tiff???? for final color correction or can you color correct on a native Redcine format.
Help!!
DF

 

[Rob Lohman]

Now if there were an editing program to read the REDCODE RAW CODEC to save a little rendering time, is that even possible?

Not really, you still need to do a high-quality debayer first etc. Unless you are talking about a lower resolution preview.

 

[digitalinnovations]

My understanding is that you output to whatever format you wish to edit in from REDCINE (i.e. DVCPRO HD for example) Then import that into your NLE for edit, color correction, etc. I am correct here?

Gee am I confused......

Do you output this 'edited' Redcine file to some online format...dpx, tiff???? for final color correction or can you color correct on a native Redcine format.
Help!!
DF

 

[Rob Lohman]

It is excellent that REDCODE RAW is visually indistinguishable from Uncompressed RAW. However, my understanding is that the real test (or "a" real test) for a compression scheme is how well it holds up through multi-generational processing in post production. Has there been any testing of REDCODE RAW in such situations to see if artifacts arise after multiple effects are applied? Of course, that would require comparison to the same effects applied to Uncompressed RAW.

You cannot do multi-generational processing with REDCODE RAW. That codec is input only. However, you could encode it out to REDCODE RGB which will allow you to do multi-generational tests. I think Graeme has done some tests and he was very pleased. The nature of Wavelet compression greatly helps with this.

Obviously you can output uncompressed (like TIFF / DPX) or lossless compressed (which is an option of REDCODE as well) files to avoid any generational loss.

 

[Rob Lohman]

Sounds great, but isn't REDCODE limited to 30fps in 4K and 60fps in 2K? High speed shooting might be one reason to output raw.

That is correct. With the RAW port you can go to 4(.5)K at 60 fps & 2K @ 120

 

[Rob Lohman]

As of today, REDCODE RAW is not designed to be an editing format, but who knows what the future holds?

You can't output to REDCODE RAW indeed. However, you should be able to load it into any QuickTime accepting application on Windows / Mac OS X.

 

[Rob Lohman]

Redcine can take an array of RAW/RGB outputs from the camera, demosaic(if raw), color correct, resize/crop and then output to codec of choice? Is this all?

In broad strokes, yes.

If you offlined in some low rez format, did all you edits/effects etc, can you then 'conform' to a Redcine format?

No, REDCINE is for RAW processing only. You will be able to export your original footage in a higher resolution and then use the normal conform tools to conform that to your offline. Or replace the lower resolution files with high resolution ones (in your NLE etc.) for the final render.

And to show how completely confused I am....Do you output this 'edited' Redcine file to some online format...dpx, tiff???? for final color correction or can you color correct on a native Redcine format.

You can do some early color work in REDCINE to get it in the ballpark. Final color correction in your NLE or post grading application. What format you use for a professional grading application depends on that application. Usually they accept Cineon / DPX / TIFF or other file sequences. If they accept QuickTime you could also export to our REDCODE RGB codec. However that might be slower than going to a file sequence if you have a (very) fast RAID array (depending on resolution of your files).

 

[Mike Devlin]

You cannot do multi-generational processing with REDCODE RAW. That codec is output only. However, you could encode it out to REDCODE RGB which will allow you to do multi-generational tests. I think Graeme has done some tests and he was very pleased. The nature of Wavelet compression greatly helps with this.

Obviously you can output uncompressed (like TIFF / DPX) or lossless compressed (which is an option of REDCODE as well) files to avoid any generational loss.

I understand that you don't process the REDCODE RAW itself (or Uncompressed RAW). Ideally we will export Avid DNxHD (or some other HD rez format) from REDCINE for off line in Media Composer and 4k DPX files for the on line. The question here is for the online conform how much difference is there between DPX coming from REDCODE RAW versus DPX from 4k Uncompressed RAW. Sounds like Graeme's initial tests indicate that we do not give up much just capturing REDCODE RAW, depending on how many layers he was dealing with. I imagine for effects-heavy shots it might occasionaly still be worth capturing 4k Uncompressed RAW, but maybe not!

 

[Phil Becque]

Hello again and thanks to all the contributors to this thread, particularly the RED team - it's been a real eye opener. I should say that my film making editing smarts are severly limited so if this is a really dumb question forgive me I often miss some crucial point:

What are the plans for RED-CINE in terms of existing HD Codec support for editing. For example the Edius Pro editing system I use: has a HQ codec for High Def - but as far as I know - that's only 1080p . I know that RED-CINE can downsample to 1080p but I'm still not sure - even if I wanted to do that what I'll have to edit with?

And then if I want to downsample to a higher res e.g. 2K or 4K what Codec support will there be for other editing systems?

I guess what I'm really asking is: will I have to get Avid or FCP if I wanted to edit something - say 15 months from now?

Many thanks for bearing with me on this one - Phil

 

[Nick Shaw]

REDCINE will encode to any codec installed on your system, as I understand it, so you should be able to encode 1080p in the Edius codec. As for 2k or 4k, if the Edius supports those, REDCINE can convert to any codec Edius can use.

Nick

 

[Phil Becque]

Great thanks!

 

[Gregory Karydis]

In other words RecCine is what TeleCine is for normal film cameras...
You feed the RAW to redcine, select the type of output and codec and redcine does the rest.
Did I get it right or confuse it even more?

 

[Chris Kenny]

You can't output to REDCODE RAW indeed. However, you should be able to load it into any QuickTime accepting application on Windows / Mac OS X.

So, REDCODE RAW can be played back, but not exported, from QuickTime? Is the codec smart enough that you can play back at a lower resolution in real-time from any QuickTime app, or is this really just more of a convenience for getting the data into QuickTime apps like Shake for processing, where real-time playback isn't a factor?

 

[Rob Lohman]

REDCINE will encode to any codec installed on your system, as I understand it, so you should be able to encode 1080p in the Edius codec. As for 2k or 4k, if the Edius supports those, REDCINE can convert to any codec Edius can use.

Keep in mind that at least for the moment it needs to be a QuickTime codec. If not you need to export to something else that Edius or the application in question can load.

 

[Rob Lohman]

So, REDCODE RAW can be played back, but not exported, from QuickTime? Is the codec smart enough that you can play back at a lower resolution in real-time from any QuickTime app, or is this really just more of a convenience for getting the data into QuickTime apps like Shake for processing, where real-time playback isn't a factor?

Realtime is a bit of a problematic word. That will highly depend on your hardware (no, we don't know yet) and certain other factors.

Yes, there will be options for lower resolution playback and such.

 

[david farland]

Say I import 4K Redcode RAW into Redcine, demosiac, then do some Red colour correction.....What is the highest resolution I can save to using the Redcine codec.........None, 1080p???

Or to keep in 4K, must I output to a non-Red codec i.e..dpx,tiff etc?

DF

 

[Rob Lohman]

If you are talking outputting it to our REDCODE RGB then 4K is definitely possible. I don't know if there are any other QuickTime codecs out there that support such a high resolution.

Obviously the still image file formats have no problems either.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

If you are talking outputting it to our REDCODE RGB then 4K is definitely possible. I don't know if there are any other QuickTime codecs out there that support such a high resolution.

Obviously the still image file formats have no problems either.

Hi Rob...

I have worked with several QT codecs at 2K, but have never tried at 4K. Realtime with QT at high resolutions is a big issue.

Cheers,

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles (but right now... jet-lagged in Singapore)

 

[david farland]

I guess (meaning I know shit about this stuff..), the missing piece is getting these 3rd party NLE's to conform Red's REDCODE RGB (or RAW??) files.

DF