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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Data rates and storage options

P

Phil Becque

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Hi Folks, I'm so excited! And English men don't normally get excited - Phew!

Anyway, I was wondering what kind of disc space we'll be using for one minute of recording at the various output rates we can get from our RED's e.g. RAW, 4K, 2K etc, etc

I'm used to DVCAM and I know it's going to be ALOT more!

Any thoughts/numbers?

Thanks, Phil
 
24 fps Redcode: 27.5 Mbytes/sec

24 fps Redcode: 27.5 Mbytes/sec

It is definitely not DVCAM (25 Mbit/sec). Last I heard, 24 fps 4k REDCODE is about 27.5 MBytes/s or 220 megabits per second, so a 320 GB Raid array (2x160 GB) attached to the RED could hold just over 3 hours of 24 fps, 4k material. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company#Compression_.26_Workflow

Comments from the Red team on this forum have mentioned that the Redcode compression scheme looks good even at lower data rates, but I don't know if they plan to make the datarate user-selectable.
 
Brilliant! Thanks mate! I'm really new to all this high end stuff but it all sounds amazing!

What kind of storage option will you go for?
 
Uncompressed RAW 4K = 323MB/s
REDCODE RAW 4K = ~27.5MB/s
REDCODE RAW 2K = [guessing] ~10MB/s
REDCODE RGB 2K/4K = currently unknown

RED FLASH magazine = unknown capacity
RED MINI RAID = 160GB
RED [fridge] RAID = unknown capacity

The smart money [<$1,000] is on the MINI RAID shooting REDCODE RAW 4K.
 
Thanks Brook -

Why would anyone want Uncompressed RAW 4K = 323MB/s ?

How would you use that?

It doesn't sound possible to edit that kind of data rate?

I guess I'm missing something ??
 
You never edit something like that online [read: at full quality]. You downconvert to a lesser format, edit that format and then conform back to your finish quality at the end.

Most humans won't want to shoot uncompressed RAW. Frankly, 323MB/s is chump change for 4K. It's the studios that would go uncompressed 4.5K [the maximum resolution and sensor area that the RED ONE is capable of] all the time.

Furthermore, the camera cannot compress 60p 4K onboard - it's just too much data. If somebody wanted 60p 4K, they'd need to go uncompressed. For the humans out there it'll probably come down to renting a fridge RAID for those days.
 
Got it - thanks

Do you think it would be feasible to use a FireWire or USB 2 drive at one of the lower rates e.g. 1080p & 25fps ?
 
No. As far as we know, you will need to purchase some form of media from RED in order to record [that is, until a 3rd party releases an option]. Jim has been adamant in stating that the storage pricing will be very reasonable. You will be able to offload footage onto those hard drives assuming you have a computer to negotiate the swap.

You could plug the SDI or HDMI output on the camera to a recording device and capture 1080p if you were so inclined.
 
Tranquil_Light said:
Thanks Brook -

Why would anyone want Uncompressed RAW 4K = 323MB/s ?

How would you use that?
Click to expand...

Woohoo!! - Up to 60fps in uncompressed RAW @ 4K (120fps max @ 2K), absolutely zero compression artifacts/issues (sounds like we won't have much of any with the wavelet based REDCODE RAW/RGB anyway).

It doesn't sound possible to edit that kind of data rate?

I guess I'm missing something ??
Click to expand...

You need a massive RAID with massive bandwidth. Other than that, you're not missing much... Oh, it takes a pretty powerful computer too and anything less than a 2.6GHz dual-core with 6GB RAM need not apply. And even that's a stretch... Plan to do a lot of off-line editing by proxy or small sequence compositing/keying at full res.

We'll cope with it the same way people currently cope with digitized film res. Or the same way we dealt with HD resolutions a few years ago, which are mostly real-time now.
 
Brook Willard The smart money [<$1 said:
is on the MINI RAID shooting REDCODE RAW 4K.
Click to expand...

My personal money will be spent shooting 4K REDCODE RAW onto the RED DRIVE (mini raid) or REDFLASH onboard. At some point I can say the name of the person (and his team) that viewed 4K RAW side by side with 4K REDCODE RAW on a Sony 4K projector and guessed wrong which was which. I can see NO reason to shoot 4K RAW. REDCODE will be shown to be as important to the program as the Mysterium sensor.

Jim
 
Its black, hmmm, OK... but I thought it was Red?!?

Its black, hmmm, OK... but I thought it was Red?!?

I heartily agree that a visually lossless wavelet codec that makes it possible to work with hi-res moving images using affordable and widely available NLEs running on commodity hardware is an awesome achievement. The more I talk to people about the RedOne camera system the more I am starting to think the next big hurdle after the creation of the sensor and the codec (and getting it working :) ) is educating people in our business what the heck it is and why they should care. Strangely enough, that may be the toughest challenge.
 
I have to admit that the REDCODE RAW is just as exciting as the camera itself. It will allow all editing and processing (not finishing & output) to be done on standard hardrives if you wish. It really is the icing on the cake.

I'm not interested in archiving 33 terabytes (around 30 hours of footage) of 4k uncompressed for a feature. With Redcode RAW we could be down around the 3 terabyte area.

Now if there were an editing program to read the REDCODE RAW CODEC to save a little rendering time, is that even possible?

I'd probably still down-rez for editing because not much of advantage for my crew to edit in 4k anyway.
 
4K Uncompressed RAW versus 4k REDCODE RAW

4K Uncompressed RAW versus 4k REDCODE RAW

It is excellent that REDCODE RAW is visually indistinguishable from Uncompressed RAW. However, my understanding is that the real test (or "a" real test) for a compression scheme is how well it holds up through multi-generational processing in post production. Has there been any testing of REDCODE RAW in such situations to see if artifacts arise after multiple effects are applied? Of course, that would require comparison to the same effects applied to Uncompressed RAW.

I would be interested in seeing footage that had motion tracking and/or stabilization, wire removal, a time effect (I know, better done in camera, but...), and then color correction -- comparing REDCODE RAW to Uncompressed RAW.

I guess this is something we can all try ourselves when we get our cameras to see if Uncompressed RAW or REDCODE RAW is most appropriate for our application. Practically speaking I imagine that initially we will do most of our capture using REDCODE RAW.
 
Jannard said:
My personal money will be spent shooting 4K REDCODE RAW onto the RED DRIVE (mini raid) or REDFLASH onboard. At some point I can say the name of the person (and his team) that viewed 4K RAW side by side with 4K REDCODE RAW on a Sony 4K projector and guessed wrong which was which. I can see NO reason to shoot 4K RAW. REDCODE will be shown to be as important to the program as the Mysterium sensor.

Jim
Click to expand...

Sounds great, but isn't REDCODE limited to 30fps in 4K and 60fps in 2K? High speed shooting might be one reason to output raw.

-Stephen
 
High-speed would be nice, but my wife said if I had to spend as much on harddrives as the camera to do a feature that I couldn't have the camera. Come on REDCODE, do your thing. :)
 
I have placed an order with my supplier for the Brand Sparkling New Seagate Savvio 15kRPM 2.5" SAS drives.
My idea is to make a portable RAID 5 configuration for when I'm travelling.
The deciding factor for going this way was that I could test-drive the technology and maybe find a way to use something simillar with my Red when I get it.
Heck, maybe a RAID 0 with a couple of these babies could work for 4k RAW.

I have ordered bulk so I will be getting a box of 10 drives to experiment on.
 
Mike Devlin said:
It is excellent that REDCODE RAW is visually indistinguishable from Uncompressed RAW. However, my understanding is that the real test (or "a" real test) for a compression scheme is how well it holds up through multi-generational processing in post production. Has there been any testing of REDCODE RAW in such situations to see if artifacts arise after multiple effects are applied? Of course, that would require comparison to the same effects applied to Uncompressed RAW.

I would be interested in seeing footage that had motion tracking and/or stabilization, wire removal, a time effect (I know, better done in camera, but...), and then color correction -- comparing REDCODE RAW to Uncompressed RAW.

I guess this is something we can all try ourselves when we get our cameras to see if Uncompressed RAW or REDCODE RAW is most appropriate for our application. Practically speaking I imagine that initially we will do most of our capture using REDCODE RAW.
Click to expand...

The idea with RAW, and REDCODE RAW, is to convert to your format of choice for editing offline (or online if you want a DVCproHD master for example), then conform your REDCODE RAW (like you would a negative) to make a master in the format of your choice, ie uncompressed RAW to then make a 35mm print for example.

As of today, REDCODE RAW is not designed to be an editing format, but who knows what the future holds?

Cheers,
Damien
 
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