Damn you 7D!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The short looked pretty good... But I have to say that I'm not a fan of the sharp clipping on the high end that I've seen in everything on the 7D so far. No color grading used on this piece? Really? Because some of the colors are over saturated and some skin tones look a bit funny at times. How much control do we have over the in-camera processing and look that gets baked into what we shoot? I'm really trying to hold my breath on a new camera like this. Honestly, I'm not that interested unless it can give me RAW recording for video as well as for stills.

There does seem to be less skew than with the 5D2. But this carnival video didn't stress it too much in that regard. Only a couple shots. Of course there's also the split-frame effect and broken scanlines on blinking lights, but that's a progressively-reset CMOS thing and we can't really nitpick any one camera for that. But it is linked to how much skew is present. The slower the read reset timing, the greater the skew or the jello effect.

I'm still eager to see some charts shot with the 7D. So far, I've only seen two full 1080p clips from the camera and both looked terrible in terms of aliasing and compression issues. But they were also only shot with available light and on pre-release cameras. There may be more clips out there now, I really haven't got too excited over the camera and gone looking for full res clips. Like I said, the lack of RAW motion capture pretty much makes the camera no-go for me, that and I don't own any Canon glass at the moment, but have a pretty good selection of Nikon and PL.

 

[mikeburton]

Just a question for Graeme, Jim, Jarred,

Will RED's new offerings be able to achieve low light shooting scenarios without a huge increase in noise like you can get with the 5D/7D? I think that is one of the best selling points of these cameras are the low light conditions. Personally, I know H.264 is weak in post but with that kind of low light capability without introducing much noise it makes the 5D/7D a great choice. Honestly, who cares if its RAW or H.264 when you get the kind of images you want. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much RED footage perform this well in ambient night light situations. So, again, will the new Scarlet/Epic offerings be up to this level of low light capabilities?

 

[Chip G]

I don't understand Canon

They were using 24p mode on Iron Man 2. They can't give us the same?

If the rumor is true I'd bet it was a prototype 7D wth the 7D tag removed.

 

[Nik Manning]

If the rumor is true I'd bet it was a prototype 7D wth the 7D tag removed.

This sounds the most logical to me.

 

[Chris Parker]

i agree with the 'other company bashing' comment. i simply pointed out that RED deserves some customer loyalty in my opinion for treating customers right, and going beyond what other companies will do for their customers.....

 

[Evin Grant]

Honestly, who cares if its RAW or H.264 when you get the kind of images you want.

Hmmm, how about anyone who does professional motion imaging and needs dynamic range and high integrity color data for color correction, compositing or VFX? There is no doubt that .H264 is a very fine delivery format, especially for the web, but it's not an acquisition format to be taken seriously, regardless of how good the images look "out of the camera".

As for sensitivity, it's important to be sure, but I have little need for anything beyond ISO 1000. You need to light to make things look good, or at least professional, no matter how sensitive your camera is it can't make your pieces look well lit.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Hmmm, how about anyone who does professional motion imaging and needs dynamic range and high integrity color data for color correction, compositing or VFX? There is no doubt that .H264 is a very fine delivery format, especially for the web, but it's not an acquisition format to be taken seriously, regardless of how good the images look "out of the camera".

As for sensitivity, it's important to be sure, but I have little need for anything beyond ISO 1000. You need to light to make things look good, or at least professional, no matter how sensitive your camera is it can't make your pieces look well lit.

Doesn't it depend on the target market ? Against HDV, 35 mbit mpeg2 or even HDcam it may be a contender against the camera's in this sector of the market. If its well implemented 4.2.2 10bit, H264 then it could be guite good but obviously no where near as good as Red's offering.

 

[Rakesh Jacob]

That's the point I always try and make when this whole RED vs. anyone else comes up. RED is looking out for its customers and trying to give them a camera that they want and can grow with. Where as Canon is just looking to screw their customers over at every chance they get. I don't care what Canon or anyone comes out with because they will never be able to match what RED does for its customers.

You're funny, I like it when funny people talk :smilielol5:
Say something else funny... please!

 

[Andrew Walker]

You're funny, I like it when funny people talk :smilielol5:
Say something else funny... please!

No need to act like a dick. I was just stating how I feel about Canon. Sure I like my 5D2 and it does amazing timelapse, if I'm shooting in RAW. Personally I think the video that comes out of these Canon cameras is on the same level of the HVX with a 35mm adaptor. Except you can't do as much with the Canon footage as you could with the HVX.

I also stick by my previous statement of Canon just looking to screw its customers over. Why not just come out with a Full Frame camera that has 24p video on it. What is the point of coming out with a cropped sensor? Maybe its so all the Canon fan boys can jump on the 7D thinking it will be the greatest thing until they come out with another model that will be FF35 and shoot with maybe a more professional codec. Then all the fan boys can buy that one as well. Just seems like a real waste of resources to come out with cameras that just has enough features to get you to dump the last camera.

RED on the other hand has given everyone the option to get a Super 35 sensor or a FF35 sensor...I know there's the 9K and 28K. As soon as its ready they will release it for us. Plus I get to trade in my camera for full value towards an Epic. Has anyone else in the history of the camera industry ever offered anything like that...to my knowledge that would be a no. Plus the customer service you get with RED is so much better than anything Canon could ever offer. Of course only people that have worked with a RED camera or own it could know what I'm talking about.

 

[Rakesh Jacob]

No need to act like a dick. I was just stating how I feel about Canon.

No need to take it like a dick I was just stating how I felt about your comment. Especially "Where as Canon is just looking to screw their customers over at every chance they get." Really, that's their business model, that seems like a very REASONABLE assessment.

Speaking of fanboy"I don't care what Canon or anyone comes out with because they will never be able to match what RED does for its customers."

EDIT: I can appreciate how passionate you are about RED but if you make a rediculous statement, I'm gonna laugh. I'm not gonna bother arguing with you, I'm not gonna tell you why other people have opposing view points and what the reasons are, I'm just gonna laugh, 'cause it's funny... sorry

 

[mikeburton]

Hmmm, how about anyone who does professional motion imaging and needs dynamic range and high integrity color data for color correction, compositing or VFX? There is no doubt that .H264 is a very fine delivery format, especially for the web, but it's not an acquisition format to be taken seriously, regardless of how good the images look "out of the camera".

Trust me Evin, I understand the importance of RAW and know how both H.264 and RAW files perform in post as well. I own a RED and work the majority as an editor/colorist. I'm not saying use one camera instead of another. All I'm saying is, if you can get what you are looking for out of the 7D (especially in Low Light scenarios) as compared to the RED in those particular circumstances than who cares if its RAW or H.264. Reason being, if my RED RAW file looks extremely noisy trying to replicate what the 7D does really well than the RAW power means nothing to me anymore.

Take this scenario, no lights, not much time, and you need to sneak a few inserts into your film in a place where bringing a RED would require a permit. If for some circumstance you were able to get your RED in there you would be faced with challenges in finding enough ambient light to make the RED's chip happy without introducing a lot of noise in your image. If the 7D is another tool in your toolkit it plays a valid role in this and a quite a few other circumstances i could think of. I'm not saying make your entire movie with one or the other, but why can't one compliment the other? Nor am I putting down RED or Canon here. Both have there strengths and weaknesses.

I guess I don't think 100% technical or are routing for one company over another. As an editor, if the Canon 7D can get us some great moments the RED can't for whatever the reason and it helps me tell the story better than that's what I find most important, not what codec it uses. I agree the 7D would be a much more desirable camera if it recorded RAW imagery to better support the post options for this technology. But right now, I'll take clean H.264 over noisy and unrecoverable RAW any day of the week, that is until someone else has another alternative. If you would choose to the contrary I would be surprised.

 

[Isaac Brody]

Agreed Mike, great points. I think I've said it over and over, there is definitely a place and time where the 7D has it's uses and advantages as a tool. Especially when it comes to low budget features. I've got a buddy who is picking up a 7D to use on a red feature in similar situations where the Red camera is impractical.

 

[Tim Le]

Why not just come out with a Full Frame camera that has 24p video on it. What is the point of coming out with a cropped sensor? Just seems like a real waste of resources to come out with cameras that just has enough features to get you to dump the last camera.

There could be technical reasons but the most obvious one to me is cost. It cost a lot less to make a cropped sensor than a full frame sensor because you can make more of them from a standard single silicon wafer. Less sensor cost means lower price for the camera. Lower price for the camera means a lot of happy people and more sales! Also, cropped sensors are nothing new in DSLRs. They are the majority. Only a small handful of cameras from Canon, Nikon and Sony are full frame. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to add video features to a cropped sensor.

Personally, I don't think Canon is screwing people. What seems unfair is just the nature of competing in a fiercely competitive, technology driven market. They (and Nikon, Sony, etc.) have to design products that fit different price points because people vary in what they can afford. So some products will have more features than others because it cost more and takes more time to develop these features. They also have to release these products to market in a timely manner or their competitors will instead and eat them alive. Since technology improves so fast, the latest product will often have the best features and sometimes at a lower price. That's just the way it is with technology. It happens with computers, cell phones, TV's, etc.

 

[Charles Nader]

There could be technical reasons but the most obvious one to me is cost. It cost a lot less to make a cropped sensor than a full frame sensor because you can make more of them from a standard single silicon wafer. Less sensor cost means lower price for the camera. Lower price for the camera means a lot of happy people and more sales! Also, cropped sensors are nothing new in DSLRs. They are the majority. Only a small handful of cameras from Canon, Nikon and Sony are full frame. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to add video features to a cropped sensor.

Personally, I don't think Canon is screwing people. What seems unfair is just the nature of competing in a fiercely competitive, technology driven market. They (and Nikon, Sony, etc.) have to design products that fit different price points because people vary in what they can afford. So some products will have more features than others because it cost more and takes more time to develop these features. They also have to release these products to market in a timely manner or their competitors will instead and eat them alive. Since technology improves so fast, the latest product will often have the best features and sometimes at a lower price. That's just the way it is with technology. It happens with computers, cell phones, TV's, etc.

I just don't think its cost extra 1k for a full frame chip oppose from cropped sensor like APS-C. I'm guessing its like $50 more...but pro people will pay for it...so their gouge the price difference.

 

[Kevin Wild]

I cannot believe how often these dumb comparisons come up.

Different tools, different features, different price points...apples meet oranges.

Use the right tool for the job. Haven't we learned this yet?

These are both great products for what they do and where they're priced.

 

[morgan_moore]

I just don't think its cost extra 1k for a full frame chip oppose from cropped sensor like APS-C. I'm guessing its like $50 more...but pro people will pay for it...so their gouge the price difference.

AFAIK chip cost rises exponentially at least with size, so double size = 4 X cost at least

 

[Andy Jarosz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZp9WMy4ihg

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Just a question for Graeme, Jim, Jarred,

Will RED's new offerings be able to achieve low light shooting scenarios without a huge increase in noise like you can get with the 5D/7D? I think that is one of the best selling points of these cameras are the low light conditions. Personally, I know H.264 is weak in post but with that kind of low light capability without introducing much noise it makes the 5D/7D a great choice. Honestly, who cares if its RAW or H.264 when you get the kind of images you want. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much RED footage perform this well in ambient night light situations. So, again, will the new Scarlet/Epic offerings be up to this level of low light capabilities?

If you consider the higher ISO rating of the new sensors and consider Color Science.

Well... Mysterium-X is going to be a great leap ahead.

 

[Stuart English]

Low light

Low light

Will RED's new offerings be able to achieve low light shooting scenarios without a huge increase in noise like you can get with the 5D/7D?

Low initial camera body cost and good low light performance are the two key attributes that have always dominated "professional" Wedding and Events use camera marketing - so its no surprise to see those two characteristics being pushed so heavily again.

But to the question: the low light noise performance of Mysterium-X, even when installed in a RED-ONE body rather than an EPIC / DSMC body which has its ASIC based advanced image processing "tuned" for it, reveals a quite dramatic improvement.

 

[mikeburton]

Low initial camera body cost and good low light performance are the two key attributes that have always dominated "professional" Wedding and Events use camera marketing - so its no surprise to see those two characteristics being pushed so heavily again.

But to the question: the low light noise performance of Mysterium-X, even when installed in a RED-ONE body rather than an EPIC / DSMC body which has its ASIC based advanced image processing "tuned" for it, reveals a quite dramatic improvement.

No doubt the new offerings from RED will perform better. I guess the proof will be in the pudding. If the new scarlet/epics can handle low light similar to the way the 7D does than its no contest for me and I'll pay more for that RAW vs. H.264 compression. If for example ISO 2000 can't be achieved with good/acceptable noise performance than I still think there is a market for the 7D. Different cameras and different choices to filmmakers. But I am looking forward to RED's offerings a bit more since I have a post setup/solution that somewhat revolves around REDCODE.