Court Rules that Unpaid Interns on Black Swan and 500 Days of Summer can sue Fox

[roryhinds]

people who work for free, are people who shoot themselves and others in the foot.
Its too expensive to live on this planet without getting paid and it totally devalues our time, energy and life force. There is no reason you should not get paid. There is a minimum wage.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

I agree Terry. If minimum wage for 20 people is 1% of the budget, pay those poor bastards.

But $100,000 is $100,000, and if a producer can save $100,000, he or she will be damned if it gets spent unnecessarily. The problem is when minimum wage for 20 human beings is seen as unnecessary.

Ask yourself, if you could get a bigger light--or a day of camera tests--anything that amounts to 1% of production budget, but a nice upgrade for camera / G&E--you'd probably go for it right?
Now what if that meant your utility "intern," somebody's friend who doesn't know much but is eager to carry cases and learn, gets paid nothing instead of minimum wage?

When there's one human face, and that face is carrying your magazines all day, it's easy to play noble and say we'd sacrifice gear or prep in order to pay that person for six weeks.
But when you're the producer, now it's 20 faces. Darren Aronofsky wants the world for $10 million. You lost your financing a few weeks before shooting, Fox saved your ass and is ready to give you 20 interns for free. Minimum wage + overtime etc would run 100,000.

$100,000 buys an additional day at Lincoln Center--or a day of makeup tests for Matty Libatique--or a few extra days in the DI suite--all things you want, not all of them you can afford--suddenly ".7%" of the budget ain't so small!

Meanwhile you've got a stack of 180 people BEGGING to work for free on an Aronofsky movie. Are you going to stand up in front of your EP and say, "let's pay these people!" ?? When Fox Searchlight has a well-established internship program? You'd be laughed out of your office...

That's the problem we're all talking about here. There is a culture of "they will work for free, so why pay them."

 

[Anderson Boyd]

I've known Eric Glatt professionally since 2009. He signed on fully willing to be an unpaid post-production intern, but possibly resultant of his previous life in finance the production relegated him to full time accounting, on top of basic office intern duties.

The last thing he is is an opportunist. He set out to create a precedence and there's a reason he won the case. Eric is most likely fully aware of the effect it will have on his future in the film industry. Not every internship is the same but if you do esoteric and exhaustive work as he did under the guise of something else, it's plain criminality. You should be paid for your time. Simple stuff.

I've been an unpaid intern half a dozen times in my early film career. Both great and not-so-great experiences. There is no argument that unpaid internships are frequently abusive and exploitative. Due to the perceived "prestige" of the film industry there is little oversight in the matter.

Updated: The organization he spearheaded. http://internlaborrights.wordpress.com/

 

[Christopher Mills]

Ok.. and on the other hat, my 2.5 decades in the business have taught me the following when considering interns.

ESPECIALLY WHEN I AM A PRODUCER

Most departments can survive having ONE.

None of them benefit from having one, and most don't want them.

Paid PAs are different, and they are also not appropriate to craft departments.

Union considerations aside, two days of extra man days of experienced labor to any department is MUCH more productive than 6 man days of PA. and more than 25 of intern

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I agree Terry. If minimum wage for 20 people is 1% of the budget, pay those poor bastards.

But $100,000 is $100,000, and if a producer can save $100,000, he or she will be damned if it gets spent unnecessarily. The problem is when minimum wage for 20 human beings is seen as unnecessary.

Yeah, but if that $100,000 saves you $1,000,000 in wasted time then that's $900,000 to not have them around. I get what you're saying about "why pay them if we don't have to". It is the root cause. But I would argue that unpaid PAs probably produce more value than they cost. And if they don't then you aren't using them very well.

An unpaid intern that isn't even worth minimum wage is somebody who is more trouble than they're worth. If you're going off of pure money considerations you shouldn't have anyone *on set* who is worth less than minimum wage. They're just going to slow production and be in the way. If they're worth minimum wage then not having them will probably use up valuable skilled labor time for useless tasks. "The DP needs a replacement lens from the rental house. Go!" If you send an AC who could be working on the next shot then that lack of a PA would cost you several times a PA salary.

So I think it's pretty easy to make a business case for that $100,000 if you have to. I mean... you could save a lot more than $100,000 by not hiring a director--but I wonder how that would turn out.

Unpaid interns of the world. If you weren't valuable to the production they most likely wouldn't have you around "out of the goodness of their hearts". So when they say they wouldn't have interns if they had to pay them.. they're lying through their teeth.

 

[Chris Nuzzaco]

I'd hate to see your ability to work for free made illegal - you should have a right to sell your labor for whatever price you want too, high or low. Labor is ultimatly just another item being marketed in the market.

 

[Mark Phelan]

I'd hate to see your ability to work for free made illegal

That is the funniest line of this whole thread.

 

[Chris Nuzzaco]

That is the funniest line of this whole thread.

I don't think it's funny. What if I forced a law dictating what you can charge a client and you disagreed? Interference into what people sell their labor for is simple price controls. You can dress it up under any other name you like, but it's nothing more than that, and they never work, they only distort the market.

If you think your labor is worth money, then refuse no-pay jobs. If you have no experience, create your own opportunities, show it off, require payment for work. That's exactly what I did when I started. I created my own opportunities and was getting paid to DP at a pretty young age (22) for regional TV spots. Some people go the unpaid intern route because they don't have the resources to make their own opportunities. I do have somethings in common with the unpaid interns: I didn't start out getting paid. In fact, I started out by spending my own money - and so did many of them via schools etc...

One last thought here. If we live in a world where one cannot dictate what they sell their labor for, what about those whose skills are so low that they do not meet the threshold for the set minimum? A sympathetic employeer who could justify $5 an hour for them to do some low level tasks would be barred from offering them an opportunity. I admit, it's the extreme end of the spectrum for examples, but it's not unrealistic either. There's a lot of uneducated people who don't speak the local language who need some kind of opportunity but they just can't be paid higher amounts of money because it's not going to be profitable for the employer. Mimium wages ultimatley push lower skilled workers out of the candidate pools for job positions.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Mimium wages ultimatley push lower skilled workers out of the candidate pools for job positions.

By that logic, minimum wage jobs are only filled by highly-skilled workers.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Funny as it might sound, I also don't like the idea of making unpaid work illegal. Then every no-budget short film would constitute a crime? Silly.

New York City has a free, production-centric, 5-week training course for folks interested in film but clueless as to what "crafty" means. "PA school." Not sure how successful it is--I would love to hear from others with experience in these types of "equal opportunity" programs--seems most of what I hear about is so-and-so's dad got his friend's son a job on such and such feature... Gavin I agree, 20 people working hard on a film had better be worth more than minimum wage! Sometimes runners save entire productions.

What do we expect to come of this, after copycats in publishing, research, and other popular fields follow suit? If there's one thing I trust in this world, its for corporations to "cut and run" from a bargain that catches fire... for all of you clamoring for entry-level pay all around, I'm curious, do you think production interns should really not exist? That they should be tied to educational institutions, an expensive barrier to entry? Or more "programs" to train people for entry level posts where they can actually be useful?

 

[Ryan De Franco]

I can't resist sharing this-- a craigslist ad a friend sent me this week, for unpaid "CRAFTY INTERNS." Yes. Crafty. Interns.

The ideal candidate would be passionate about both film and perhaps a bit of a foodie as well. "

 

[Chris Nuzzaco]

By that logic, minimum wage jobs are only filled by highly-skilled workers.

They are filled by those who meet the minimum requirements (and possibly exceed to some degree), I never said they were highly skilled, just skilled enough to justify the rate they are paid. Those who fall below it, won't be considered.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Most jobs are filled by people who meet some sort of minimum ability to do the job, or else they wouldn't get hired, paid or not paid -- it has nothing to do with the rate. No one willingly hires people to do a job that the person can't accomplish. You're implying that these interns are doing work that doesn't deserve the minimum wage rate because it doesn't require that minimal level of skill.

 

[Chris Nuzzaco]

Most jobs are filled by people who meet some sort of minimum ability to do the job, or else they wouldn't get hired, paid or not paid -- it has nothing to do with the rate. No one willingly hires people to do a job that the person can't accomplish. You're implying that these interns are doing work that doesn't deserve the minimum wage rate because it doesn't require that minimal level of skill.

The rate has much to do with it David. If you are employing two people for $100 a day and you are suddenly forced to pay each $200 per day and can't afford the price hike, who do you think you'll keep around? The more skilled laborer of course. Why? Because the price just went up and you need to maximize you're return on the laborer. This is basic economic action. When the price goes up, you expect more bang for your buck in some way if you can get it. So while I agree, ability is a factor, so too is the amount you have to pay for it. The higher the price, the higher skill levels and versatility an employer will expect. If the price is raised high enough, expanded job duties are typically the next step, and after that, automation will become the next option they look at. Everyone expects more bang for buck paid. Price is a huge factor in who get's employed, it's not just skill. I deal with this all the time, I hire models, makeup artists and hair stylists for my clients productions. I expect to recieve much more out of anyone who charges me more, and I'm glad to pay it if they deliver.

I'm not implying the work of these interns doesn't justify minimum wage. It certainly might. I'm simply defending their right to sell that labor for whaterver price they like. They willingly choose free. Now that they are turning around and suing over it, it just rubs me the wrong way. If you're in a non-paid job position and your duties expand to a point where you feel payment is deserved, do the correct thing: negotiate a rate. If they don't budge, resign.

 

[Mark Phelan]

I'm not implying the work of these interns doesn't justify minimum wage. It certainly might. I'm simply defending their right to sell that labor for whaterver price they like. They willingly choose free. Now that they are turning around and suing over it, it just rubs me the wrong way. If you're in a non-paid job position and your duties expand to a point where you feel payment is deserved, do the correct thing: negotiate a rate. If they don't budge, resign.

Chris, I actually agree with you. People should be allowed to be fools if they so choose. If they want to willingly give themselves away, that is their right. Laughing at their lunacy is our right. We do not live in a totalitarian state, yet, and we have the right to decide what we are worth. For some apparently, that is nothing.

 

[Björn Benckert]

We do not take that many interns. Uusally none. But we got about 400 requests from students and others a year that want to come and work for free for 6 months or more. But usually I do not feel like I want to share my client base and or my way of working with to many people. Pretty much every one we bring in as an intern has the possiblity to:

a: later on move to a competing company.
b start their own.

So as I see it the "know how" and resume I give our interns is far more worth than a normal salary. As it works out anybody that worked here can later on qualify for rather high positions anywhere else in the world. As an example my 6 months flint assistant went straight to Newzeeland to become a lead Inferno artist for the lords of the rings trilogy, he was then not even trained enough to handle smaller commercials in our place. So then why would I pay somebody while giving their carriers a kickstart in such short time? As I see it the interns could pay to be here instead of their schools where they do not seam to learn that much...

To put a law suit after finished work is just plain wrong. They had all their chances to leave the job and say no thanks anytime during their internship.

 

[Scott Crawley]

To put a law suit after finished work is just plain wrong. They had all their chances to leave the job and say no thanks anytime during their internship.

I understand many of your concerns Bjorn, even this one that I single out. As I understand it though, to win a judgement one must be able to show and quantify damages. That is infinitely harder to do when you never had a relationship in the first place. Backward or not, that is how our system works.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I can't resist sharing this-- a craigslist ad a friend sent me this week, for unpaid "CRAFTY INTERNS." Yes. Crafty. Interns.

The ideal candidate would be passionate about both film and perhaps a bit of a foodie as well. "

Craft service interns eh? If that doesn't bear witness to the problem I'm not sure what does.