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COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS OF EPIC-X/EPIC-M

T

Tim Duran

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I know it's in Reduser somewhere, but I just can't find it. My number is up on the M wait list. But it now seems to be so close to X's release that I'm not sure it's the wise move anymore. Someone posted an analysis of the estimated value of the sum of the parts of M v the anticipated sum of the parts of X to the general public, but after an hour of looking, I can't find it.

With Monstro coming up in maybe a year and X Phase II coming up in hopefully 60-90 days or so, I'm not sure that buying an M right now is the best move for me. I don't really think bragging rights for an M is going to buy me that much at this late date.

My clients know the name "Red", but probably know nothing about "M" and "One." I know and will probably appreciate the differences, but I don't need a $60,000 pat on the back.

Thoughts please. Thanks.
 
How can you do a cost benefit analysis on something that isn't yet shipping vs. something that is?

I say get one while you can and then you'll have two. It was a hard choice for me as well but I do not regret it.

-michael zaletel
 
If you can pull in an extra 10 or 20k worth of business because you have an epic now, do it. This also gives you an advance on letting people know you have one. 2 months from now, or sooner, epic-x should be in full swing.
 
Nuka, good advice. thanks. There are similar analyses going back into 2010 your post led me to. The posters earlier this month didn't give a line item for the $2,500 titatium mount and I was not comparing M to X stage II. I'm comparing it to someone coming to buy an Epic X today with no freebies. Yes, it is a good deal. Now the decision is do I really need three Epics?

Michael, it's easy to do a cost benefit analysis if you know the costs, can estimate the value, then determine the time you have that value before it becomes a street item, less unique and less valuable. It becomes really tricky when trying to figure out if Monstro will destroy value or just be another expensive, hightly specialized tool--and when.
 
Honestly I think it pans out like this:

You can buy an M now...

Eventually you can buy an X...

Eventually Monstro will occur...

However the only thing certain is what is purchasable now. I'm not trying to intimate in any way that the other options won't happen but it is an unknown as to when.

I say go for the M, You won't be disappointed I can honestly say.

Jason
 
I have an Epic M and I hope it works out financially. It it looking good.

I have had the camera 1.5 weeks and I already have 4 days billed and 3 more next week. All of those jobs would have been with my Red-Ones if I didn't have the Epic.

At this point I am bumping up my clients to Epic for the cost of R1 on a one time deal to show them the system & results....

Prost,
Rich
 
Rich Schaefer said:
I have an Epic M and I hope it works out financially. It it looking good.

I have had the camera 1.5 weeks and I already have 4 days billed and 3 more next week. All of those jobs would have been with my Red-Ones if I didn't have the Epic.

At this point I am bumping up my clients to Epic for the cost of R1 on a one time deal to show them the system & results....

Prost,
Rich
Click to expand...

Therein lies the rub. How many jobs can you get that specifically ask for Epic in the next couple months? simply replacing the Red One does not justify the price difference IMO. I have only had one call for Epic call so far so. The M is also a full 58k, excluding any of Reds generous loyalty rewards so that should factor into
your equation as well.

I had to do alot of dog and pony shows to get Red off the ground here, There is that possibility that, as Rick is trying, once they see Epic it will bring in even more projects.
 
Paul Hazlett said:
I had to do alot of dog and pony shows to get Red off the ground here, There is that possibility that, as Rick is trying, once they see Epic it will bring in even more projects.
Click to expand...
Assuming you have lights in your kit, can you tell the difference between Epic M and RED ONE MX footage? ... at 4K? Can your client?
 
Paul Hazlett said:
How many jobs can you get that specifically ask for Epic in the next couple months? simply replacing the Red One does not justify the price difference IMO.
Click to expand...

It is hard to definitively answer this question. Some of my jobs this week are specifically asking for Epic because they would benefit from higher FPS and I will be charging a higher $ for the system.
 
Good points and questions. No doubt that Epic is the better camera. No doubt that the Epic is more user friendly. But as said above, can your client tell the difference on a normal commercial shoot? I'm going to guess no. Can the run and gunners get some more interesting angles and shots not available or easily available from REd One charge that much more? Any more?

How about those early M buyers. Are they getting new business because of the Epic or have they discarded their One's and just use their Epic now? Note: My issue is not getting an Epic, I have two on order. Question is buying the "M" at this date.

Having an Epic months ago brings you bragging rights and a great marketing tool. I'm not sure that this holds true today or thirty days from today whenever delivery occurs.

Please keep your thoughts coming. I need to make up my mind soon. Alternative is to buy more glass which I have to do to feed the pending Epics anyway.
 
George Butterfield said:
Assuming you have lights in your kit, can you tell the difference between Epic M and RED ONE MX footage? ... at 4K? Can your client?
Click to expand...

this is an old argument from way back to the days of sd. The fact remains that you need to give clients what they want, whether they know the difference or not.
 
Tim Duran said:
My issue is not getting an Epic, I have two on order. Question is buying the "M" at this date.
Click to expand...

I think this is a question you can only answer yourself. Is it worth it to YOU? To buy an M package now and start working? I think most indie owner/ops who's cameras spend most of the time on other peoples' productions, with themselves as AC, DIT, etc.. probably don't have a good reason to buy an M unless they know they can work it to pay the difference between now and then. Rental houses are buying up M's so they can have a rental fleet of Epic cameras in place before all the low-balling, cutthroat, indie guys start mucking with the market. Once the X cameras ship, the M and X will rent for the same price. So M is not that great of an investment for someone who primarily rents their gear out, IMO. It's going to be a situation where the camera should rent for more because of the higher cost, but it won't because the exact same camera, but with cast outer parts and PCB's assembled by a robot, will be around for a bit less.

Comparing the M to Stage-2 or Stage-3 makes little sense. First of all, we don't know the final package details for either of those options. Second, those options have considerations for the customers who can use them. M is separate, it's a way to buy an Epic now, ahead of the other stages and general Epic-X availability. If you add up all the bits in an M kit and compare with list prices for the X brain and everything else, the entire kit is about an $11K premium, what amounts to about a $6K-$7K premium for the brain itself. For many, that is a real bargain in order to have the camera now or relatively soon.

OTOH, if you can wait for your Stage-2 cameras... Based on the old numbers and advertised kit, adding a Bomb EVF and equivalent media to a Stage-2 system would come in about 40% or so cheaper than buying the M.

Those of us with Stage-2 reservations, who can also use the M now, are getting the best of both worlds.

I have a Stage-2 X camera and I jumped on the M train too. I personally am tired of waiting and have stuff I want to do with the EPIC now.
 
It's more like a $20,000 difference between Stage II Epic-X and Epic-M & a $10,000 difference between retail Epic-X and Epic-M
 
$28,000 not including all those accessories that come with the M, including $7,200 worth of media
 
Tim Duran said:
I know it's in Reduser somewhere, but I just can't find it. My number is up on the M wait list. But it now seems to be so close to X's release that I'm not sure it's the wise move anymore. Someone posted an analysis of the estimated value of the sum of the parts of M v the anticipated sum of the parts of X to the general public, but after an hour of looking, I can't find it.

With Monstro coming up in maybe a year and X Phase II coming up in hopefully 60-90 days or so, I'm not sure that buying an M right now is the best move for me. I don't really think bragging rights for an M is going to buy me that much at this late date.

My clients know the name "Red", but probably know nothing about "M" and "One." I know and will probably appreciate the differences, but I don't need a $60,000 pat on the back.

Thoughts please. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I went through the same exact train of thought.
Difficult to justify to close to Epic X, what made me sign on the dotted line was that it was only another 10k more than a standard epic. Once you ad the extras the X does not come with. But the M comes out with a titanium mount and billet body. Aaaaaaand I'll put my left nut on saying. Epic X is still many months away for the masses.
 
Mark Toia said:
Epic X is still many months away for the masses.
Click to expand...

Hopefully not. We were promised that Epic-X stage II will be released this Summer and many of us are counting on that. I am going to take JIM's words as fact until i hear otherwise but I'm financially planning for this Summer. I'll be pretty upset if it goes longer and I imagine most other stage II buyers will be as well. If Red can't get all 18 parts together in time maybe they should consider machining those parts to satisfy their core customer base. Just sayin'
 
Jeff, you have access to other "M" owners. What are some of the projects these guys are undertaking that you or they can't possibly do with the Red One in the context that the $10-20,000 premium is worth it to have an "M" now, two-three months before the "X" is released (yes, that may be too hopefull, but that's the latest skuttlebutt).

AS I said previously, I say I'm shooting with a Red camera to people. No one has asked me if my images would be better had I had an Epic or what premium they would be paying if an Epic was used.

If Red was to say the the X was six or nine or twelve months away, that would be an easy decision. But saying that it would be June or then late summer (or others said that, I don't recall. Also, once Epics are being distributed, is it going to be as the Red Ones were distributed, a long slow process? Or are they going to get 3-5,000 Epics in a line, send out 30 day notices and fulfill in a 30-40 day period.

$10-$20,000 permium now for a 6 month head start makes sense for me. It doesn't for a 30-60 day head start.
 
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I agree Tim, If Epic was 6 months away, I might pony up the extra scratch, but as it stands now Epic-X might cost me 15k more than what I have at red and the Loyalty discounts, Epic-M is a true 58k which is fine if I had the client base for it, but as it stands Red is just a part of my work as I have clients that want other cameras as well, from AF100 to panny 3700 and everything in between. So If you can generate those clients by having an Epic-M now, go for it.
 
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