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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Conversion LUTS

jacob.schwarz

jacob.schwarz

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Does anyone know where or how i could get some conversation luts for my DaVinci System?

I would be great to have a LUTs that would allowed me to stay at RedFilmLog through out my workflow.

RedFilmLog to DCP
RedFilmLog to Rec709
RedFilmLog to sRGB

Where could i find these?
 
Hello Jacob

I do exactly that (and much more...) go here:

http://www.motionfx.gr/order-now-lut.html

to the bottom on the Conversion LUt's and select DaVinci originals are for Cineon HD to be converted to DCP-XYZ or REC709 etc...

The workflow that you following is the best... Also you can Grade for a real Film target and then convert... In this way you will always able to print film and have the film aesthetics on DCP and HD...
 
Do you also offer a LUT for DCI-P3, i have a dreamcolor monitor and it would be great to color at RGB DCI-P3 spec.
 
Jacob conversion LUT's are assuming that you have used a certain calibrated viewing environment most of the time is a Film out target.

If you use a calibrated REC 709 monitor and grade with a LUT REC 709 to Kodak cam neg film i.e. I can provide a Kodak cam neg film to DCP XYZ or P3...

This assumption is crucial... so I have to suppose that your Dream color is set to Cineon 6500K and you graded with REDFilmLog in this set up... then you order a Cineon Log 6500K (HD) to DCP-XYZ and on the checkout shopping cart you add on the text box that you need a P3 instead of XYZ or after order you send me an email...

Hope it helped...
 
Sounds good. Ordered up a REC 709 and DCP XYZ lut for now and will keep coloring at REC 709. If these work great maybe i'll order up one more for P3 to use with my DreamColor.

Thanks for all your help.
 
Exactly Gabriel, REDlogFilm is 100% Cineon... and for grading, for Filmout works like a champ!

See the movies we did in 2011 all are REDlogfilm... http://www.motionfx.gr/client-work.html

I want to thanks Jim and Graeme about that... its being long time that I protest along with Mike's contribution to fix that...

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?31727-Cineon-10bit-Log-encoding-for-DPX-discussion-thread

Thats Jocobs reply after he tested them...


They seem to work great! You were right about the Smpte version worked better with my setup.

I'll let you know if i have any problems however, once i do some more testing.

Thanks so much for the fast turn around. I'm really interested in having a P3 version that would work with my DreamColor so that utilize the full color gamut and range that that monitor has to offer and then it check it with to the REC709 out and DCP XYZ from the Cineon LUTs you created for me. Is this possible? Let me know and i'll make another order.

Again your are the best and i'll recommend you to the school i teach at to have them buy some more luts for you.

--
Mystery Box
Click to expand...
 
thanks evangelos

does redlogfilm retain all the data ? even on a 10 bit container ? (because i remember that redlog (not film) was the only red curve that could retain 12 bit inside 10 bit container ...

ps:one off topic question : i remember you were a big fan of the sony FW900 ...does the FW900 playback 23,98 psF (SDI converted to RGBHV (aja box)?

thanks!

g
 
Yeah it a great workflow. I've always finished and colored at REC709 spec and have been fine, but now that i'm being asked more and more for DCP and sRGB outputs it great to have the ability to color at the highest and just allow the "proper" LUTs do the down-converstion to the smaller color spaces, making your original grade more future proof.
 
Is the Cineon HD to to REC 709 LUT to be applied before or after you grade the image, or does it matter? I'd like to see if a few of these would improve my workflow and delivery as well...
 
Gabriele Turchi said:
thanks evangelos

does redlogfilm retain all the data ? even on a 10 bit container ? (because i remember that redlog (not film) was the only red curve that could retain 12 bit inside 10 bit container ...
Click to expand...

The original Cineon Log was designed to be able to reproduce a film negative. We all know that film has more than 14 bits information stored. So the argument that only REDLog was able to hold all the 12 bits was fundamentally mistaken. The way Cineon "resonates" in order to reproduce the image is more related to the way human perception works rather than what is the data specific values we want to store, those making it a perceptual compression method rather than a data one. And since Humans are our clients and not machines its obvious for whom the compression has to be optimized...



Gabriele Turchi said:
ps:one off topic question : i remember you were a big fan of the sony FW900 ...does the FW900 playback 23,98 psF (SDI converted to RGBHV (aja box)?
Click to expand...

I thing it can do it... my new favorite, not that is better but greatly workable, is Apple Cinema 27" LED... I did with a partner from Malta (Ashley owned post house) a short that goes to Cannes and I was surprised of the results. Although we used allot of tricks, at the end it worked very closely of what I was getting with FW900... the movie was a dark monochrome with a slightly green tint, art short that confront the whole setup to its limit's... the results was perfect... The ACD was connected as secondary monitor in Color. With DaVinci I couldn't do that, or at-least with the previous version, if someone likes to tell us if the new version has an option to work without a Video card on the secondary monitor, it will be perfect...



jacob.schwarz said:
Yeah it a great workflow. I've always finished and colored at REC709 spec and have been fine, but now that i'm being asked more and more for DCP and sRGB outputs it great to have the ability to color at the highest and just allow the "proper" LUTs do the down-converstion to the smaller color spaces, making your original grade more future proof.
Click to expand...

That's the essence of what I'm trying to teach in the http://www.motionfx.gr/workflows-lut.html page and more...

Its not only that you grade for the widest color space available but additionally to grade for film, allows a greatly different experience for the colorist and leads to an enhanced result that can't be replicated in REC709. Since coloring is a push-pull process, if the material allows to be graded in a more flexible way at the end the colorist is driven to deliver a much more appealing result of what it was possible with REC709.

So the idea is to grade with Cineon or much better to a real Film target and then with just an output LUT (conversion LUT) to deliver to all targets... even if you being asked to do a Filmout, it will be just a render...

But the key is a) Film aesthetic in the result, and b) ability to grade once and get perfect cinematic result for all possible deliverables.
 
Jake Bastian said:
Is the Cineon HD to to REC 709 LUT to be applied before or after you grade the image, or does it matter? I'd like to see if a few of these would improve my workflow and delivery as well...
Click to expand...

Jake, you have to grade with a Cineon LUT on your grading monitor and then use the Conversion LUT as an output LUT to get the image "conformed" to the various delivery targets... DCP, REC709, sRGB etc...

You can get a Generic LUT for DaVinci using REC709 monitor (LCD or CRT) with a Film target or a Cineon target. Use it as viewing LUT while grading and then use a Conversion LUT for originals Film or Cineon, which need to be converted to DCP XYZ, P3, REC709 etc...

All these can be found in the bottom of this page: http://www.motionfx.gr/order-now-lut.html

With the Film target, you will get the additional bonus of being able to Filmout your work and also get the "character" of Film embedded on the result.
 
Evangelos Achillopoulos said:
I thing it can do it... my new favorite, not that is better but greatly workable, is Apple Cinema 27" LED... I did with a partner from Malta (Ashley owned post house) a short that goes to Cannes and I was surprised of the results. Although we used allot of tricks, at the end it worked very closely of what I was getting with FW900... the movie was a dark monochrome with a slightly green tint, art short that confront the whole setup to its limit's... the results was perfect... The ACD was connected as secondary monitor in Color. With DaVinci I couldn't do that, or at-least with the previous version, if someone likes to tell us if the new version has an option to work without a Video card on the secondary monitor, it will be perfect...
Click to expand...

Do you mind please ask to one of you customer that have it , if they can playback 1080/23.98 PsF ?....I am asking because the manual of the Aja HD10C2 (SDI to RGB/Component converter ) it say that monitor as the Sony FW900 does not support 1080/23.98/24 PsF , reason is that the Horizontal scan frequency of that signal is 27 Khz and the FW900 support 30-121 Khz ...

ps:why you like the 27 Apple ? gamut and decouple ? as far as i know have a glossy screen ...i am wondering how can it accurate on the blacks...

thanks!

g
 
Gabriele Turchi said:
Do you mind please ask to one of you customer that have it , if they can playback 1080/23.98 PsF ?....I am asking because the manual of the Aja HD10C2 (SDI to RGB/Component converter ) it say that monitor as the Sony FW900 does not support 1080/23.98/24 PsF , reason is that the Horizontal scan frequency of that signal is 27 Khz and the FW900 support 30-121 Khz ...
Click to expand...


Sorry to verify but the Sony FW900 Does not playback 23.98 24 or 25 signals but only 30 for the reason stated above.
 
Evangelos Achillopoulos said:
Jake, you have to grade with a Cineon LUT on your grading monitor and then use the Conversion LUT as an output LUT to get the image "conformed" to the various delivery targets... DCP, REC709, sRGB etc...

You can get a Generic LUT for DaVinci using REC709 monitor (LCD or CRT) with a Film target or a Cineon target. Use it as viewing LUT while grading and then use a Conversion LUT for originals Film or Cineon, which need to be converted to DCP XYZ, P3, REC709 etc...

All these can be found in the bottom of this page: http://www.motionfx.gr/order-now-lut.html

With the Film target, you will get the additional bonus of being able to Filmout your work and also get the "character" of Film embedded on the result.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I'm getting really close to an order with you, as it look like you have LUTs for Apple Color which is what I'm using at the moment (that may change with FCPX though). So basically if I'm grading my RED footage in REDlogFilm and REDcolor2 in Apple color and I'm using a monitor with a REC709 viewing LUT then what I would need from you is a Cineon HD to REC 709 conversion LUT for delivery to TV because my footage isn't actually in the gamut that I'm viewing it at, right? I'd also need a different conversion LUT for delivery to web (is that a sRGB conversion LUT?)

I've gotta say I think you're getting me the closest I've ever been to sort of understanding how LUTs work this has been really useful for me.
 
Jake Bastian said:
Thanks! I'm getting really close to an order with you, as it look like you have LUTs for Apple Color which is what I'm using at the moment (that may change with FCPX though). So basically if I'm grading my RED footage in REDlogFilm and REDcolor2 in Apple color and I'm using a monitor with a REC709 viewing LUT then what I would need from you is a Cineon HD to REC 709 conversion LUT for delivery to TV because my footage isn't actually in the gamut that I'm viewing it at, right? I'd also need a different conversion LUT for delivery to web (is that a sRGB conversion LUT?)
Click to expand...

This has nothing to do with gamuts, it has to do with gamma curves. You are not converting color spaces (the color matrix is already being applied as part of the debayer process, that's why you choose either Redcolor or Redcolor2), you're just converting Cineon to video. The only thing you need to properly display Red footage that is being interpreted with RedlogFilm and any flavor of Redcolor is a 1D Cineon to HD Video LUT. You can make one for free using Arri's LUT builder on the ArriDigital website. Just specify 1D LUT, Extended range on both input and output, LogC source, Video out, No color matrix (1D LUT) and choose Apple Color from the LUT generator selection list. Or, you can buy one from Evangelos. Your choice.
 
John Tissavary said:
FYI, Dreamcolor monitors already have a P3 colorspace built in.
Click to expand...

John, is one thing to have a monitor with a certain color-space preset and another A) to grade in a Wider color-space in order to have a portable result AND B) to grade in Log environment or Better, to a coloring environment that resembles the Film Behavior.

The Idea is to be able to do all...

To grade for P3 and then i.e. to try to go to Film is like, you grade in Linear (Video) and then you asking your self why the result looks like... video in theater...

Its not only a matter of workflow but ALSO aesthetics... check here the first image, which compares the same source with two different workflows http://www.motionfx.gr/workflows-lut.html don't stay only in the highlights behavior which is obvious, but see his arm going to the wheel and his face how different are from REC709... they are much more natural...

Ido thanks for the answer.... its a pity...
 
M Most said:
This has nothing to do with gamuts, it has to do with gamma curves. You are not converting color spaces (the color matrix is already being applied as part of the debayer process, that's why you choose either Redcolor or Redcolor2), you're just converting Cineon to video. The only thing you need to properly display Red footage that is being interpreted with RedlogFilm and any flavor of Redcolor is a 1D Cineon to HD Video LUT. You can make one for free using Arri's LUT builder on the ArriDigital website. Just specify 1D LUT, Extended range on both input and output, LogC source, Video out, No color matrix (1D LUT) and choose Apple Color from the LUT generator selection list. Or, you can buy one from Evangelos. Your choice.
Click to expand...

Is that type of LUT for viewing the footage or converting? As I understand it Apple Color won't accept a 1D LUT...
 
M Most said:
This has nothing to do with gamuts, it has to do with gamma curves. You are not converting color spaces (the color matrix is already being applied as part of the debayer process, that's why you choose either Redcolor or Redcolor2), you're just converting Cineon to video. The only thing you need to properly display Red footage that is being interpreted with RedlogFilm and any flavor of Redcolor is a 1D Cineon to HD Video LUT. You can make one for free using Arri's LUT builder on the ArriDigital website. Just specify 1D LUT, Extended range on both input and output, LogC source, Video out, No color matrix (1D LUT) and choose Apple Color from the LUT generator selection list. Or, you can buy one from Evangelos. Your choice.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately Mike I disagree... In real life work we see thinks that are out of gamut on our monitors, Ido has seen that numerous of times, when image looks weirdly noisy and dull... when we transfer all that to film the noise and the bad colors are just not there and instead are beautifully colorful and deep shadows...

i.e. if gamut was a range of numbers from 1 to 9 and our monitors can show from 3 to 8, a viewing LUT is trying to show that but it can't, that doesn't mean that the information is not there but instead if we use a wider gamut output like film, then the image is transfered to that new display and is visible the 1 to 9 that wasn't in the monitor...

Monitors are like a window with a view, sometimes the windows are small, sometimes the windows are having curtains, but the truth is that the landscape is always there... by seeing a portion of the view doesn't mean that the view isn't there...

If we grade in a smaller range like REC709 in Linear and we force our selfs in that range, this then is inherently limited...

Moreover a 3D LUT handle the saturation of colors much more effectively than a 1D LUT which is available from ARRI also the LUT's I provide have the level of quality which is available only if they bought CineSpace, so that can't compare so easy... Lets say they are the real thing...
 
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