Controls and Menu Items

[Alexander Nikishin]

Rob

I am very happy that RED is putting forward the RED digital cinema system the way it is. Build a camera that captures the image similar to a film camera (variable shutter and FPS) and then the rest goes to a colorist in post. This system will bring back the craft of cinematography and make better DOP's by having them trust their eye and have to know in their head what the post processing will give to the finished "look".

The "HD black tent from hell" is only another great tool that shooting in HD puts at our disposal. I can't possibly understand how being able to monitor your image for a final look or a more accurate representation is by any means "hell".

I've always been and always will be a firm believer that the less that needs to be done in post to a picture, the stronger the skills of the DoP are.

 

[Finner]

I am still interested if full size XLR's could be done and if there will be external audio adjustment knobs?

 

[Gbabymogul]

HD "Video Assist"

Even if we are recording RAW, we still need to monitor in the Viewfinder or via HD-SDI and / or HDMI on set. Therefore we DO need and DO have RGB / 4:2:2 domain image processing. But do we need all of those RGB domain image processing menus to be in-camera?

In a file based solution such as RED its not necessary. Using "look" files we can create any color corrected 4:2:2 HD-SDI output (or for that matter 1080p or 720p RGB video for recording to the Digital Magazine) we desire for each scene off-line and then load that data into the camera via SD cards or via wireless or USB interfaces. Then we can tag this look data, plus any white balance adjustments we make while shooting as metadata against the RAW recording so that we can repeat the RGB image processing in post.

If you take this approach then the structure of the on-board camera menus is greatly simplified. Or you put all the RGB menus complexity back into the camera menus and do this setup there. I know which path I would prefer... but we have the system flexibility for either approach.

Forgive my ignorance Stuart, but are these "look files" just reference images plus metadata to tag RAW footage while shooting, or is there a way of applying the data to the 1080p video out, thereby real time monitoring RAW footage with the "look file" data ? And if not; is there a third party product that would accomplish that ?

Also, will the menu configuration be customizable at the factory, or do you have ways of accomplishing it after delivery ?

 

[Stuart English]

RED Ui - 3

RED Ui - 3

Audio on RED is full function - 4 discreet channels and industry leading 24 bit depth. We'll explain more at NAB about what we are providing beyond this.

The USB port on the camera allows us lots of flexibility to offer additional control surfaces for special applications.

Mini-XLR to XLR converting cables already exist, no need for dongles unless you really want to use them. Several wireless mics already use mini-XLR, so we believe that this is the future analog audio connector of choice. And it also allows us to package 4 discreet mic / line / 48V phantom power inputs into our body.

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

HD "Video Assist"

I know which path I would prefer... but we have the system flexibility for either approach.

Why not have both? I'm sure that many ENG or live event shooters would prefer to have more of an "on the fly" menu command system.

I think that's the beauty of Red, it covers all the bases for all types of shooters.

 

[Finner]

The "HD black tent from hell" is only another great tool that shooting in HD puts at our disposal. I can't possibly understand how being able to monitor your image for a final look or a more accurate representation is by any means "hell".

I've always been and always will be a firm believer that the less that needs to be done in post to a picture, the stronger the skills of the DoP are.

The HD tent becomes a problem when a DOP spends more time in it then working with their crew. The HD tent has become a crutch that a good DOP rarely or never needs. Sure its great to see your image but not at the expense of the time it takes for your eye's to adjust when all you have to do is understand how to get the most out of your meters and train your eye's.

I agree with your second point 100% when it comes to film. Not with the RED though which the "stock" or "look" is added after shooting. The DoP's strong skills with a RED camera will be his lighting understanding in combination with knowing how the "look" chosen will be effected by the lighting. But with the "look" or "stock style" being added to the RAW footage Post will become more critical then ever. As a strong film supporter it took me a while to start to like the "stock" changing to a post thing but now I am starting to get very excited about all the options it will give me. I will still use filters as often as I do with film trying to limit "post adjustments" and shoot pretty much the same way I do with film only I will have various stock options available to me in post.

 

[Stuart English]

Look files and monitoring outputs

Look files and monitoring outputs

"is there a way of applying the data to the 1080p video out, thereby real time monitoring RAW footage with the "look file" data?"

Yes. The look data is used to preset the RAW to RGB image processing chain in the camera, so viewfinder and HD-SDI / HDMI outputs will follow those instructions. As would the RGB video recorded to the digital Magazine if you choose 1080p or 720p on-board recording.

 

[David Fairbanks]

So I assume that you could modify and load the lookup table from you computer to the camera via USB or SD card. Which would also mean that you could load identical data onto multiple cameras.

 

[Gbabymogul]

"is there a way of applying the data to the 1080p video out, thereby real time monitoring RAW footage with the "look file" data?"

Yes. The look data is used to preset the RAW to RGB image processing chain in the camera, so viewfinder and HD-SDI / HDMI outputs will follow those instructions. As would the RGB video recorded to the digital Magazine if you choose 1080p or 720p on-board recording.

Fanfreakin'tastic

That's exactly what I was hoping for. It sure will reduce post-pro time if that's the approach you want.
Personally, I think shooting the 4KRAW footage with preapplied look files in 1080p vieo output will save a lot of time on set.

 

[Alex Boothby]

Personally, I think shooting the 4KRAW footage with preapplied look files in 1080p vieo output will save a lot of time on set.

Yes, and the more we become familiar with the nature and range of Redcode Raw, the more we will be willing to take risks when time is of the essence. Set a general LUT for your master, and then bang off your closeups without endlessly tweaking the camera settings.

(whoops - is "master" an evil word on this forum?)

Which brings me to my next question: Stuart, will we be able to toggle the EVF back to the pure raw data to "check the neg" so to speak? Or should we just check the histogram for that? Strangely I find a certain comfort when looking at raw.

 

[Michael Morlan]

HD "Video Assist"

Using "look" files we can create any color corrected 4:2:2 HD-SDI output (or for that matter 1080p or 720p RGB video for recording to the Digital Magazine) we desire for each scene off-line and then load that data into the camera via SD cards or via wireless or USB interfaces. Then we can tag this look data, plus any white balance adjustments we make while shooting as metadata against the RAW recording so that we can repeat the RGB image processing in post.

Okay, I just WET MY PANTS!

I added the looks files data path to my growing workflow diagram here:
http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm

M

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Yes, why yes you can

Yes, why yes you can

The way I understand it the LUTs and some other fun facts can be inserted into the metadata at several points along the way. The idea is the "digital negative" - if you shoot 4k RAW (probably RedCode) that image info is the biggest, widest data set the system can read. Traveling with that image data is a non-destructive data set that can act on the image data as needed and be used as a reference later in the post chain. I plan to rent the best scopes I can find, shoot some chips, then take a meter like an EyeOne and read the values on the monitor I plan to use in the field then adjust the LUT until I get a reasonably linear relationship.

Will this be spot on, not likely, but it will make sure I keep in the ballpark of the look I want - then I'll tweak it the rest of the way in post.

Getting a look on set, and getting a look in post are not mutually exclusive options. Embrace the possibilities! Maybe you know you are going to crush the blacks in post, now you can put on a low contrast filter or shoot a flat ratio - knowing you'll pop the contrast out in grading. I want to pick a look in pre-pro then reverse engineer it. I am very curious to shot a little under (ETTR) then push it way left in post. Maybe pull a plate of everything over 70 IRE then blur it a little and blend it in with just the right compositing mode and tweak the opacity to taste, basically an extension of the old Trish Meyer "instant sex" effect with RAW data.

 

[Alex Boothby]

I'm starting to feel a future RED accessory coming on - albeit a bit of a vanity one. Imagine a jacked-up video I-pod for DOPs, which operates one program - REDCINE. The 'RED-pod' is loaded with the DOPs favorite LUT setups, which can be applied on set to stills grabbed from his/her current RED camera setup. While the final lights are being set (or the actors are finding their motivation or whatever), the DOP can fiddle with the current color setup, and can then export it back to the RED-ONE quicker than you can say "roll camera".

The real advantage is not so much to save the crew time (which it won't) or to nail the look for on-set playback, but rather to give the DOP a portable and convenient tool to communicate his/her look to the dailies colorist. I find more and more DPs are spending more and more time shooting DSLR stills, pulling them into a laptop and then prepping them in photoshop so that the midnight one-light guy doesn't screw up the look. (note: if you can't find your DP on set, check A) craft service table; B) extras wardrobe.... and more and more frequently C) in the camera room mucking with gamma curves.)

First problem with the RED-pod is that it will have to run on Intel (I think Greame or Stuart mentioned that). Next problem is monitor calibration. Too bad I-pods don't come with a CRT screen, eh.

I know what you're all thinking - pure genius!!! I've just described a tiny laptop. For my next feat I'll invent a portable hard drive which plays back MP3s directly into your headphones. Where's the nearest (US) patent office?

 

[Alex Boothby]

BTW: good post Blair.

 

[Brook Willard]

I am very curious to shoot a little under (ETTR) then push it way left in post.

ETTR = slight overexposure, not under.

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

Boothba, one of the Red team members has already stated that the Red One will be able to ingest an SD card containing LUT files and the like.

No need for a large ipod like unit when it can be done on a simple 1" card.

 

[Alex Boothby]

True - but in the future it would be great to conveniently tweek color setups and test LUTS off camera - which would require a display. Sorry, I think Apple's ads have done a number on me. I can't stop dancing.

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

True - but in the future it would be great to conveniently tweek color setups and test LUTS off camera - which would require a display. Sorry, I think Apple's ads have done a number on me. I can't stop dancing.

Ah I see, that's why I posted earlier in the day saying that I wouldn't mind having an intuitive image control menu in-camera in addition to being able to upload LUT data.

I'm with you on the idea.

 

[Martin Drew]

And it also allows us to package 4 discreet mic / line / 48V phantom power inputs into our body.

You have me whooping for joy with that announcement Stuart. I had resigned myself to line-ins only which would have meant adding another box on the side of the camera to handle mic pre for an on-camera mic.

Have you fixed how level control will be implemented? Will it be a menu item or a physical control on the camera?

Martin

 

[Chris Gearhart]

Just, . . . wow.