Contax Zeiss Survival Guide

[Oscar Stegland]

WOW - some AMAZING stuff being posted recently!!!! Holy cow!!
@ Oscar, fantastic shots!! Yes, I've seen a Zeiss 300mm APO with PL mount on sale on ebay, so I DO think some of these APO lenses found their way into cinema use, absolutely. We personally were't prepared to invest that much, so we picked up a Nikkor 200 f2 (used on Spielberg's Munich, amongst many other movies) and a Nikkor 300 2.8 (when not using the 100-300). In regards step up rings, honestly we find using Cordvision the easiest solution, by far. So cinema friendly. And these caps from Adorama are a fantastic compliment!!

Thank you Nick. I'm taking the plunge on Cordvision fronts with my next paycheck as well as the Adorama caps. Have fitted 6 lenses with Helicopter-Sean's gears as well (every single one fit perfectly). But I was going to get all 77mm Cordvision fronts and then individual step up rings for each lens so if I, for instance don't end up with a useless Cordvision front if I sell my 135 2.8 down the road for the 2.0 version. The Cordvision ones are Hardened Aluminium right? But if brass really is the way to go I might just go for the indiviual Cordvision sizes, which comes out a whole lot cheaper in that instance.

 

[Brice Ansel]

@ Ben, Oscar and John good stuff there !

Hey guys I just received an 18mm AEG in pristine condition I didn't have the time to put it on test yet but I can't wait to do it.
This lens is sooo tiny.

Before that, the wider Contax I had was the 25mm, I was watching some shot I did with it in june and I guess the 18 is a different animal.

some pics from the 25 AEG @ 6k FF:

Cheers
B.

 

[Ben Scott]

Great shots there Brice! Those cliffs are amazing.

 

[Ben Scott]

Another

Sunrise on the Dalmation Coast by Ben Scott, on Flickr

 

[Craig J Marshall]

Gorgeous pictures Brice & Ben!

I read that RED has announced the new Raven camera head and I'm interested but the fine print states that it is fitted again with a native EF mount. I assume this sensor is S-35 so if previous similar offerings from RED and BMD are anything to go by, a focal reducer may not fit this camera so consequently, my collection of Contax lenses would not have their original FF Field of View restored.

Given it's the 'wide' end of the Contax series where the money is, this is disappointing and one of the reasons I remain a Sony customer. Can anybody confirm or elaborate?

 

[Nick Morrison]

Gorgeous pictures Brice & Ben!

I read that RED has announced the new Raven camera head and I'm interested but the fine print states that it is fitted again with a native EF mount. I assume this sensor is S-35 so if previous similar offerings from RED and BMD are anything to go by, a focal reducer may not fit this camera so consequently, my collection of Contax lenses would not have their original FF Field of View restored.

Given it's the 'wide' end of the Contax series where the money is, this is disappointing and one of the reasons I remain a Sony customer. Can anybody confirm or elaborate?

Not much more to elaborate I'm afraid.

RAVEN is part of the WEAPON family, and as such has a deeper flange than mirrorless systems. So fixed EOS mount it is (perfect for Leitaxed Contax glass!!)

RAVEN remains a world class camera however, at a startling price.

Contax glass should look amazing on it.

 

[Oscar Stegland]

Gorgeous pictures Brice & Ben!

I read that RED has announced the new Raven camera head and I'm interested but the fine print states that it is fitted again with a native EF mount. I assume this sensor is S-35 so if previous similar offerings from RED and BMD are anything to go by, a focal reducer may not fit this camera so consequently, my collection of Contax lenses would not have their original FF Field of View restored.

Given it's the 'wide' end of the Contax series where the money is, this is disappointing and one of the reasons I remain a Sony customer. Can anybody confirm or elaborate?

Unfortunately it's not a S35 sensor. It fits squarely in between S35 and M4/3 which makes the wide end even more troublesome. The crop factor is
X1.87 so on the ultra wide end there's not a whole lot of choices.

The image quality will no doubt be fantastic but I'm wondering who RED are targeting with this camera, seeing as you can nearly buy an Ursa Mini 4.6k for the money it will take to get a raven shooting.

 

[Samir Patel]

Beautiful Brice and Ben!

Unfortunately it's not a S35 sensor. It fits squarely in between S35 and M4/3 which makes the wide end even more troublesome. The crop factor is
X1.87 so on the ultra wide end there's not a whole lot of choices.

But on the long end it's going to be fantastic! 120+ fps sports long lenses! amazing! I can't wait!

 

[Alex Larson]

Unfortunately it's not a S35 sensor. It fits squarely in between S35 and M4/3 which makes the wide end even more troublesome. The crop factor is
X1.87 so on the ultra wide end there's not a whole lot of choices.

The image quality will no doubt be fantastic but I'm wondering who RED are targeting with this camera, seeing as you can nearly buy an Ursa Mini 4.6k for the money it will take to get a raven shooting.

Bless the Black Magic soul, I know they are trying hard but the Ursa Mini sensor isn't even in the same ballpark as the Dragon or ARRI sensors in terms of sensor design, if it was it would be shooting everything.

20.48mm of the Raven is a lot wider than people are thinking, a very big difference between micro 4/3rds. The format of MFT states 18mm but almost every single MFT camera uses a 17.3mm wide sensor.

And people are stuck on the width of super 35. Alexa is not even is a true Super 35mm, even when you shoot full ARRIRAW mode it falls an entire mm short of Super 35.

The 7D, most of the customers in the Raven markets "first" super 35mm sensor wasn't even close to Super 35, the 7D has a 22mm sensor, spitting distance to the Raven.

 

[Nick Morrison]

The crop factor is
X1.87 so on the ultra wide end there's not a whole lot of choices.

Not sure that's entirely true. Off the top of my head, Contax 21 comes to mind. And more affordably, Sigma 18-35 and Tokina 11-16.

 

[Uli Plank]

Both BM and the Sony A7S can't touch the colors of Dragon, I have them all here at the university.

BM is pretty good these days and the switch between global shutter and rolling shutter will be quite helpful.

The Sony has massive RS at FF and still quite a lot in APS-C, plus it has it's problems with very specific wavelengths of blue LEDs.

Regarding wides, it'a not too hard to match the excellent Sigma 18-35mm with Contax. For anything wider, there's Tokina, but it matches not so well.

 

[Brice Ansel]

Those cliffs are amazing.

The beautifull Azorean islands.
The Dalmation coast and 21mm combo aren't bad either

 

[Michael Hastings]

Unfortunately it's not a S35 sensor. It fits squarely in between S35 and M4/3 which makes the wide end even more troublesome. The crop factor is
X1.87 so on the ultra wide end there's not a whole lot of choices.

The image quality will no doubt be fantastic but I'm wondering who RED are targeting with this camera, seeing as you can nearly buy an Ursa Mini 4.6k for the money it will take to get a raven shooting.

Not sure that's entirely true. Off the top of my head, Contax 21 comes to mind. And more affordably, Sigma 18-35 and Tokina 11-16.

Sigma also has a nice 8-16mm rectilinear. F4.5 but as far as I know the widest m4/3 lens is the Panasonic 7-14 F4 so 8-16 should provide essentially the same FOV on the raven with only a third (?) of a stop difference.

As far as the Ursa Mini, it is actually cheaper. Saw another post saying "the Ursa Mini sensor isn't even in the same ballpark as the Dragon or ARRI sensors in terms of sensor design, if it was it would be shooting everything. " But we don't really know that since it hasn't been delivered yet. In this price range, the ursa mini seems like it will be a viable camera - some nice features, a 4.6K sensor so a little headroom over Raven to get closer to true 4K finished resolution or for cropping/stabilizing and maybe the sensor is as good or better - we just don't know.

What we do know is that the Dragon is a proven sensor technology and Red cameras have been used in hundreds of high level features, television shows, etc. and so far that just isn't the case with BMD cameras - so it should be much easier to convince producers to shoot with a Raven.

(You just tell them: "it is a Dragon sensor that shoots 4K up to 120fps, if we need more resolution we need to step up to another RED camera, since really the only other choices are the Sony F65 or Arri 65 - a huge difference in price and logistics.)

 

[Oscar Stegland]

Bless the Black Magic soul, I know they are trying hard but the Ursa Mini sensor isn't even in the same ballpark as the Dragon or ARRI sensors in terms of sensor design, if it was it would be shooting everything.

20.48mm of the Raven is a lot wider than people are thinking, a very big difference between micro 4/3rds. The format of MFT states 18mm but almost every single MFT camera uses a 17.3mm wide sensor.

And people are stuck on the width of super 35. Alexa is not even is a true Super 35mm, even when you shoot full ARRIRAW mode it falls an entire mm short of Super 35.

The 7D, most of the customers in the Raven markets "first" super 35mm sensor wasn't even close to Super 35, the 7D has a 22mm sensor, spitting distance to the Raven.

Difficult to say about the Ursa Mini sensor, since it hasn't been released yet. I'm no fan of BM cameras. The Ursa Mini is the first camera of theirs, that has piqued my interest. The way I see them is: consumer products with professional specs. I do think Blackmagic have lovely color science though.

My point was, the whole 4k-for-all concept gets kind of skewed when you can buy a (on-paper) similarly specced camera for the amount that it costs to get the Raven up and running. Especially seeing as how awkwardly the Scarlet Dragon now sits in the product line.

There are options sure, but both the Sigma 18-35 and Contax 21 are going to be on the longer end of wides. The Tokina 11-16 is a good choice. MFT lenses won't work so you're limited to APS-C or FF ultrawides. That Canon 11-24 could be very useful on Raven, but it's no Contax

 

[Michael Hastings]

Difficult to say about the Ursa Mini sensor, since it hasn't been released yet. I'm no fan of BM cameras. The Ursa Mini is the first camera of theirs, that has piqued my interest. The way I see them is: consumer products with professional specs. I do think Blackmagic have lovely color science though.

My point was, the whole 4k-for-all concept gets kind of skewed when you can buy a (on-paper) similarly specced camera for the amount that it costs to get the Raven up and running. Especially seeing as how awkwardly the Scarlet Dragon now sits in the product line.

There are options sure, but both the Sigma 18-35 and Contax 21 are going to be on the longer end of wides. The Tokina 11-16 is a good choice. MFT lenses won't work so you're limited to APS-C or FF ultrawides. That Canon 11-24 could be very useful on Raven, but it's no Contax

Don't get me wrong, I put my Raven deposit down as soon as I woke up yesterday - for a variety of reasons. But taking your comment: "consumer products with professional specs" does that imply that raven, epic, dragon are "professional cameras with consumer specs"? - given that they only come with "consumerish" 1/8" audio inputs and HD only outputs unless you buy quite expensive adapters.

I'm playing devil's advocate here but what is inherently more professional about the RED cameras? I'll give you that RED is far ahead in acceptance by the major movie makers but part of that is that they were first out of the gate with a relatively low cost, compact digital cinema camera that put out a pretty good image that they could work with. I suspect the majors could work with the initial BMD 4K sensor cameras much as they did with the REDONE (No point as most had already moved on to better sensors), but I suspect the IQ of the 3rd generation 4.6K chip will come pretty close to what we are seeing with RED and Arri (particularly given the margin of capability that all of the color grading systems have) - and if that's the case it would seem in the realm of "professional" and then you add all those professional features like:

Stereo XLR with Phantom Power
12G-SDI Out (live out to Monitors, recorders, live switchers - without needing expensive and cumbersome adapter
3G-SDI Out
12G-SDI In
Reference In / Timecode In
Industry standard 4 pin XLR Accessory 12V Power
Industry standard 4 pin XLR 12V Main Power
Direct mount of inexpensive Vlock or AB battery mount
3.5mm Headphone
LANC (for easy low cost remote control of iris and focus and record (consumerish yes, but nice to have in many professional environments - underwater, aerial, jib, crane, gimbal, etc.)
Broadcast Lens B4 lens Control Connector on PL version with interchangeable mount to B4 mount
Both PL and EF available in a ~$5K body.
and use of off the shelf Cfast cards that are becoming something of an industry standard (used by that significant other) as well as BMD, AJA, Canon, Phase one, etc.)

and direct buttons for iris and focus control on EF version,
and even the (inexpensive) shoulder mount uses the professional video industry standard quick release tripod plate

and it seems like you might have a pretty viable "professional" camera.

As Jarred said: "fear and BMD don't go together" - Red doesn't have anything to fear but I'm sure there is enough respect that RED takes a look over their shoulder every once in a while, because BMD, Sony, Panasonic, etc. are not sleeping - and this is a good thing - it keeps all of the manufacturers on their toes - adding capabilities and lowering costs.


I have an URSA MINI on order also because I make underwater housings for all these different cameras - it will be interesting to do some comparisons once I have both cameras in hand.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Unfortunately it's not a S35 sensor. It fits squarely in between S35 and M4/3 which makes the wide end even more troublesome. The crop factor is
X1.87 so on the ultra wide end there's not a whole lot of choices.

The image quality will no doubt be fantastic but I'm wondering who RED are targeting with this camera, seeing as you can nearly buy an Ursa Mini 4.6k for the money it will take to get a raven shooting.

Oscar, Raven is almost exactly Academy 35:

 

[Nick Morrison]

PS @ Brice and @ Ben - gorgeous pics!!

@ Brice - love seeing your work on here again! You've always been such a great presence on this thread, and an early supporter. Always love seeing your work and what you're up to!!!

best

 

[Brice Ansel]

Thank you Nick for your words !
I wish I could share more, but right now I'm more into techies job than been creative for myself.
You know one for the bred one for the reel. I'm into a bred period.
Anyway just geting ready to make sing the 100/300 and the extender tonight for the super moon.
I'll be probably really shitty for my trailer job tomorrow morning but I can't wait 20 more years for the next phenomenon.
Cheers

B.

 

[Oscar Stegland]

Don't get me wrong, I put my Raven deposit down as soon as I woke up yesterday - for a variety of reasons. But taking your comment: "consumer products with professional specs" does that imply that raven, epic, dragon are "professional cameras with consumer specs"? - given that they only come with "consumerish" 1/8" audio inputs and HD only outputs unless you buy quite expensive adapters.

I'm playing devil's advocate here but what is inherently more professional about the RED cameras? I'll give you that RED is far ahead in acceptance by the major movie makers but part of that is that they were first out of the gate with a relatively low cost, compact digital cinema camera that put out a pretty good image that they could work with. I suspect the majors could work with the initial BMD 4K sensor cameras much as they did with the REDONE (No point as most had already moved on to better sensors), but I suspect the IQ of the 3rd generation 4.6K chip will come pretty close to what we are seeing with RED and Arri (particularly given the margin of capability that all of the color grading systems have) - and if that's the case it would seem in the realm of "professional" and then you add all those professional features like:

Stereo XLR with Phantom Power
12G-SDI Out (live out to Monitors, recorders, live switchers - without needing expensive and cumbersome adapter
3G-SDI Out
12G-SDI In
Reference In / Timecode In
Industry standard 4 pin XLR Accessory 12V Power
Industry standard 4 pin XLR 12V Main Power
Direct mount of inexpensive Vlock or AB battery mount
3.5mm Headphone
LANC (for easy low cost remote control of iris and focus and record (consumerish yes, but nice to have in many professional environments - underwater, aerial, jib, crane, gimbal, etc.)
Broadcast Lens B4 lens Control Connector on PL version with interchangeable mount to B4 mount
Both PL and EF available in a ~$5K body.
and use of off the shelf Cfast cards that are becoming something of an industry standard (used by that significant other) as well as BMD, AJA, Canon, Phase one, etc.)

and direct buttons for iris and focus control on EF version,
and even the (inexpensive) shoulder mount uses the professional video industry standard quick release tripod plate

and it seems like you might have a pretty viable "professional" camera.

As Jarred said: "fear and BMD don't go together" - Red doesn't have anything to fear but I'm sure there is enough respect that RED takes a look over their shoulder every once in a while, because BMD, Sony, Panasonic, etc. are not sleeping - and this is a good thing - it keeps all of the manufacturers on their toes - adding capabilities and lowering costs.


I have an URSA MINI on order also because I make underwater housings for all these different cameras - it will be interesting to do some comparisons once I have both cameras in hand.

In my mind Sony, RED, and Arri are purely aimed at professionals and work as such too. Blackmagic simply have had too many sensor problems and obvious design flaws for me to want to use them regularly on a set. The original Cinema Camera is the only one that's worked as advertised for me (haven't shot on Ursa yet). But even that one had the massive problem of using a non-removeable battery. What's the point of a small camera if you have to pack it with loads of extra mass to be able to shoot for more than 30 minutes?

They're great for the money and getting ProRes and RAW workflows in that range is just an incredible feat, but I consider RED more professional because there's a level of reliability there that Blackmagic so far haven't achieved, at least in my experience. They're getting closer with each release and the URSA Mini could be one hell of a camera if they deliver on their specs. But still, there are a few things that bug me. The screen, the way it's designed, will be unusable when shoulder-mounted, and it won't fold in with the screen out.

Don't want to derail the thread any further, but it's doubtlessly interesting times for customers in this price-range between the Raven, Ursa Mini, and FS7. Incredible, what's available under $10k atm.

@Nick
Like you guys pointed out there are options. A S35-sized sensor would have made it more interesting to me, however, or if it used either E-mount or MFT. But it's incredibly impressive that they've managed to get Dragon sensor tech into this price range.

@Brice
Beautiful shots! I think I'll have to take the plunge on that 25 soon enough Please post the results of the moon if you get any good shots.

 

[Uli Plank]

As much as I would have liked a Raven with a shorter flange mount for all my vintage glass (a lot more than Contax alone), I doubt that MFT would be large enough. And Sony doesn't license the E-mount, unfortunately.

@ Nick:

Do you have any idea how the Contax N 70-300mm compares to the Y/C 100-300mm?

It can be found much cheaper, and since my A7S get's more an more use as a B-cam these days, I'm considering buying one.

TIA