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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Compulsory Whining, Pricing FUD, Sky is falling...

Peter Osinski said:
is it me or did "3k for $3k" just jump to "3k for $(who knows)k"
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Just to make you feel better, the original 3k-for-$3k camera's specs included a 4.8-inch LCD (not the smaller one) and dual CF slots (not the single slot on the side).
 
Mauricio De la Orta said:
Think about it. Why on earth would you throw away $4k+ for a JVC/SONY/PANASONIC/CANON videocamera when you can get a DSLR that gets you better results for half the price?
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Because it's a tool made for actual video work, not for artsy test films?

;-)

a) Form factor
b) Some of them have advanced (pricier) I/O interfaces.
c) Some have pro Audio
d) is there anything else? And I'm not even listing their weak points.
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- Less rolling shutter artifacts (or none whatsoever, with CCD cameras)
- No moiré / stairstepping / small detail with shimmering rainbow artifacts
- Standard frame rates and modes, (yes, including interlaced video, that's what most TV work is done with)
- Built in fast 10-20X zoom with decent stabilization can be a very good thing (even autofocus can be useful)
- Small sensor makes focusing easier, not everything needs ultra shallow DOF
- Better codecs (yep, including XDCAM HD, EX and HDV), and better color sampling (with DVCPro HD cameras)
- And as said, they're built with video work in mind

..."better results" is, well, arguable...
 
Stuart English said:
I think that's not accurate. At least in broadcast, cameras in 720p format came out AFTER cameras in 1080i.

But as 1080i sales remained in the tank, it was time to try something else. Once proven there was an HD market 1080i got a second chance, but when it failed again, manufacturers thought that 1080p might do the trick. Since then we have had pixel-shifting, up-conversion, 1440 horizontal sampling, 1-chip 1920 x 1080 CMOS sensors, and now line-skip DSLR downconversion pretending to be 1080p.


So slow progress. Now you may say I'm biased; but you can judge the quality difference for yourself when Scarlet is here.
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Not sure about broadcast, as it's not my field, but I'm talking about my experience on products targeted to prosumers. If my memory doesn't fail me the first prosumer HD camera was the JVC HD10u back in 2003 and it did only 720p.

Now regarding Scarlet, I am completely sure its quality will amaze us since that's sort of Red's policy ;).

All I'm trying to say is that capitalism brings competition and I'm sure other companies are already working on upgrading their videocameras because they know there's a Scarlet comming which will finish what DSLR's started: Rendering their current prosumer line obsolete... And they've had at least one year to do that work since the original Scarlet announcement.

So just imagine for a second one of their idea stealing marketing execs in a meeting room:

------------------------
INT. CSPJ (Canon/Sony/Panasonic/JVC) meeting room - DAY

EVIL MARKETING EXEC
Ladies and gentlemen we have our new kickass camera
ready. The moment red announces the availabilty of Scarlet
we'll also start selling ours.

CEO
Well done Walter. We have nailed them this time.

INT. CSPJ offices - TWO DAYS LATER

CSPJ CEO and Marketing Exec are watching the news on a huge 90"CSPJ LED TV, as Red announces they have started selling Scarlet and talking about it's new awesome specs and price.

CEO
What the heck!

CEO looks furiosly at evil marketing exec

CEO
Why in the world is our new camera so lousy in comparison to the Scarlet?

EVIL MARKETING EXEC
Ahem... Well, we developed our camera from the specs we
read on Red's website last year...

CEO
What?! You should have done a deeper research. Now nobody is going
to buy our camera.

EVIL MARKETING EXEC
But our camera has a 2/3" sensor, an F4-8 10x fixed lens, and does 2k for
only $4000 us i think it is a very good deal.

CEO's face has turned RED. We can spot some veins about to pop out of his forehead.

CEO
You are out of your mind?? You know what... You're fired!

EXT. CSPJ Building - Moments later
The evil marketing exec comes out of a door carrying a box with books and papers in it. He looks right and sees a Billboard. He discovers it is announcing the new FF Scarlet fixed lens for only 3,500 usd.

A red spot shines in his eye. The camera moves away to reveal his angry expression.

EVIL MARKETING EXEC
I'll get you next time Jim.

Evil marketing exec walks by himself on a lonely street. We see the sun setting.

FADE OUT.
THE END
 
Mauricio De la Orta;487913 EXT. CSPJ Building - Moments later The evil marketing exec comes out of a door carrying a box with books and papers in it. He looks right and sees a Billboard. He discovers it is announcing the new FF Scarlet fixed lens for only 3 said:
This is a dream sequence right?

I can see RED possibly shifting to an S35 scarlet at a lowball price using Mysterium-X chips that were rejected for bad pixels (masked of course), but doubt if Full frame sensor.
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Mauricio De la Orta said:
...

EXT. CSPJ Building - Moments later
The evil marketing exec comes out of a door carrying a box with books and papers in it. He looks right and sees a Billboard. He discovers it is announcing the new FF Scarlet fixed lens for only 3,500 usd.

A RED spot shines in his eye. The camera moves away to reveal his angry expression.
Click to expand...
CUT TO:

Evil Executive stands on the lip in front of the billboard, pounding on it, futility attempting to tear the billboard image.

EVIL EXECUTIVE
I hate you! I hate you! I hate you!​

He pauses, caresses the big RED logo.

Breaks into tears.

EVIL EXECUTIVE
(sobbing)
Who am I kidding? I LOVE YOU! I love your modular design, your cutting edge technology, the responsiveness of your creator to user feedback, I love everything about you!
​

He snuggles up to the RED lens.

EVIL EXECUTIVE
I must possess you. I must hold you in my arms. When, when, when can we be together - never to part???​

FADE OUT.
THE END
 
Jannard said:
Many worry about everything... it is human nature. We feel like we have a pretty good track record so far (except for meeting schedules). Relax until we give you a real reason to worry. Some things will go up, some will go down. Since "everything has changed" since last November it is time to wipe that from your mind and prepare for the final pricing.

Jim
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Heh, that's the thing. I usually don't worry about what you guys do. It just kinda freaked me out a little when the prices weren't up. Can't wait to see what you guys have in store.
 
Pietro Impagliazzo said:
Sadly if the price of the Fixed Scarlet raises too much, many of the potential buyers will jump to VDSLRs and diss RED.
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From what I've been following over the last two years - Jim and crew have learned a lot while starting a little revolution in the film industry (not an easy thing to do - I'm assuming). They've learned a lot from the RED ONE launch - and I think I remember them saying that Scarlett will be produced en masse.
So logic would figure that cameras & accessories produced en masse = cheaper (in general, not necessarily from the original quoted prices and especially considering how 'limited' the run was on R1) And as far as the modules go - the entire line of new cams will be using the same modules - so I hope the science of scale will be on our side. So have a little faith - They've come this far in two years - they're not going to screw us now.

Jim & Co. = Geniuses.
 
Pietro Impagliazzo said:
Sadly if the price of the Fixed Scarlet raises too much, many of the potential buyers will jump to VDSLRs and diss RED.

Sad thing indeed.
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I have a bunch of old cameras kicking around as technology changes, all pretty much worth more at the time then the price of scarlet fixed is rumored . I'm excited by the that fact scarlet is priced what it was and if it fluctuates 20% no worries. It does 3k, and I shoot for TV it exceeds my needs for 1080 for the next 10-20 years. DSLR are obsolete every 6 months these days and will be that way for 4-5 years. The reason being, unit demand is not driven by the cinema market in DSLR. They'll never wake up unless jim puts a few out of business. 6 months or a year later, just try holding off when that new model comes out that is slightly better, but far from red. You'll look at this forum, and be jealous. You'll have to keep buying new cameras paying way more then a scarlet ever cost. And your junk will be relatively worthless.

With red I'm sure it will have a shelf life of 10+ years and still be worth 50-70% of it's value, well over My two HVX P2 camera (+8 batteries and 6x16gb cards which was a 20-25k investment) (coming up on 3 year old) How about my old Xl1s with EF adapter and many items which acts as a paper weights, another 15k for it all. Managed to sell my Canon Gl2 for 1/6 the price I paid.

I remember back to my first camera. An arri BL bought at a estate garage sale for under 200$ with a nice set of prime lenses. It was a decade or two old when I bought it, and I bet someone still uses it today 15 years on, or up to recently. Scarlet makes me think of that. Red one's will be around for the next ten years minimum. Scarlet/Epic will be longer. Your DSL will break soon and be too expensive to fix, so you'll just buy a new one because it is cheaper to do so. It still won't be nearly as nice as a red and you'll will still be looking at these boards dreaming of the films in your head. That DSLR will never feel right no matter how much you bulk it up.

Spend the money, it will be worth it! It will always have value like my BL.

My Old BL lasted me a day, I sold it the following day to my teacher who paid me $4000 (I was short money on my tuition and was going to be kicked out) I never got into features or became the DOP I thought I would, However I have shot and produced films that are shown on National Geographic. A good compromise I think!

Jim were 100% behind you pricing these camera what they are worth, I want RED making money so you can keep producing fine cameras. Of course the cheaper they are, the more we'll buy!

MD
 
Jon Howe said:
So logic would figure that cameras & accessories produced en masse = cheaper (in general, not necessarily from the original quoted prices and especially considering how 'limited' the run was on R1) but have a little faith - They've come this far in two years - they're not going to screw us now.
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I guess there are various thresholds for being screwed. All I know is that the only price increase relative to Scarlet is for the fixed 2/3-inch, whose price has increased 25% ($750) since its original design (for the basic kit). But the basic kit reportedly has only one CF slot (vs. the original's two slots), probably the smaller LCD (vs. the original's 4.8-inch), and no HD-SDI port (HD-SDI was specced for the original Scarlet). If this is true, it might bring the the fixed's cost to $5,000 to $6,000 to match the original Scarlet's functionality. I consider a 66% to 100% price increase screwing us, at least relative to the hyped price of the original design. But that's just me. And the original was specced to support Redcode up to 100 MBps rather than only 42 MBps. I'm expecting a further price increase for the fixed Scarlet, which would be questionable in this economy.
 
Lawrence Bansbach said:
I guess there are various thresholds for being screwed. All I know is that the only price increase relative to Scarlet is for the fixed 2/3-inch, whose price has increased 25% ($750) since its original design (for the basic kit). But the basic kit reportedly has only one CF slot (vs. the original's two slots), probably the smaller LCD (vs. the original's 4.8-inch), and no HD-SDI port (HD-SDI was specced for the original Scarlet). If this is true, it might bring the the fixed's cost to $5,000 to $6,000 to match the original Scarlet's functionality. I consider a 66% to 100% price increase screwing us, at least relative to the hyped price of the original design. But that's just me. And the original was specced to support Redcode up to 100 MBps rather than only 42 MBps. I'm expecting a further price increase for the fixed Scarlet, which would be questionable in this economy.
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Steve Gibby said:
One of Jim Jannard's key traits is fairness - he consistently under-promises and over-delivers.
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I've found this dichotomy very interesting over the past year. Many of the users here follow Steve's sentiments, while others see Lawrence's side. I'd like to see it talked over in a polite and civilized discussion... see where it goes.
 
Steve Gibby said:
As one of the very first customers of RED, along with my friends Mark Pedersen, Blair, Billy, Shawn, Dino, and many others, I'd like to say that RED has always priced their products at a very generous level to their customers. The performance to price ratio of RED One, and the RED lenses has been nothing short of phenomenal!

One of Jim Jannard's key traits is fairness - he consistently under-promises and over-delivers. Those of you on this thread complaining about prices of products, when they haven't even been finalized and posted, need to seriously step back two squares, re-evaluate your attitudes, and just hold on until the prices are finalized - and when they are, I guarantee you they will be at a good, fair price level.

A fiscally healthy RED company benefits us all - let's not begrudge them their just revenue. All of my friends on RED Team absolutely bust their asses 20 hours a day, seven days a week, to crank out these great products for us. We need to thank them for their efforts, and realize that they absolutely deserve to make a good living for what they do.

I own RED One serial number 0008 and two other very, very early REDs - and I couldn't be happier with RED's prices and customer service.

Please think before you post your product price worries - and realize that whatever the prices are they will be set at a more than fair level. RED has more than earned our respect - let's give it to them.

RED has always been more than fair with us...and I never see that changing...

Just sayin'...
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Need I say More?!
 
Lawrence Bansbach said:
I guess there are various thresholds for being screwed. All I know is that the only price increase relative to Scarlet is for the fixed 2/3-inch, whose price has increased 25% ($750) since its original design (for the basic kit). But the basic kit reportedly has only one CF slot (vs. the original's two slots), probably the smaller LCD (vs. the original's 4.8-inch), and no HD-SDI port (HD-SDI was specced for the original Scarlet). If this is true, it might bring the the fixed's cost to $5,000 to $6,000 to match the original Scarlet's functionality. I consider a 66% to 100% price increase screwing us, at least relative to the hyped price of the original design. But that's just me. And the original was specced to support Redcode up to 100 MBps rather than only 42 MBps. I'm expecting a further price increase for the fixed Scarlet, which would be questionable in this economy.
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You certainly can speculate all you want... and if we miss your window of "good"... there are other options out there for you. We are trying to deliver an important product at a price that can be afforded by many (not all) and not lose money in the process. You may want to reserve judgment until more info comes out... but it is your call.

After posts like these, I have to admit 2nd guessing whether we should have ever kept an open dialog. "Subject to change" only seems to be allowed if things get better. Human nature I guess.

Best.

Jim
 
Lawrence Bansbach said:
I'm expecting a further price increase for the fixed Scarlet, which would be questionable in this economy.
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The economy is not too shaky up here in Canada. We'll buy up the first batches till you guys recover a bit!
 
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