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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Compulsory Whining, Pricing FUD, Sky is falling...

I

Ian B. Johnson

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Jannard said:
Everything is a part of "subject to change...".

Jim
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$750 never did seem a realistic price for a LCD, CF module, and handle... at least we know now to save up a bit more.

EDIT: Can't forget the battery either.
 
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Ian B. Johnson said:
$750 never did seem a realistic price for a LCD, CF module, and handle... at least we know now to save up a bit more.
Click to expand...

i think even more so, 500 never seemed a realistic price for that lens
 
Peter Osinski said:
i think even more so, 500 never seemed a realistic price for that lens
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True. Autofocus, T2.8 through the zoom range (or was it 2.4?), and 3K resolving power would have been a STEAL for only $500 on top of the brain price.
 
I think it is clear that those who thinking scarlet 2/3 changeable or s35 will come under 7-10k complete have to factor in about 10-15k extra for i/o module, battery module +4 batteries, bomb or LCD and CF module? Plus the lenses? To bad there is not an Audio module that is small that has 2 or 4 XLRS instead of the whole I/O. HDSDI is nice, but not all of us need it.

The fixed seems like you'll end up spending 6-10k

I'd love to see a long reach telephoto from red.

Still very nice that we have the options! Thanks!
 
Prices sit unchanged on Red's site... a glimmer of hope remains for 3k at $3k.
 
We got these kinds of posts back when we were waiting for RED also. Bottom line: A 2/3 chip for less than $8,000.00 is a MAJOR DEAL. Just look around.. Look at the Sony EX-3 which has a 1/2" CMOS sensor and see how much it is.

I know we all want everything for pennies on the dollar, and RED did post some pretty amazing prices, but it's always smart to work in a 20% buffer whenever possible. It keeps you from getting dissappointed.

Jim keeps his word.. And the Scarlet they spoke of long ago would still be what he quoted, but there's a good chance they ADDED to Scarlet and made it even better. If this is the case, then the price would go up accordingly.

Understand that if there are some of you that cannot get a Scarlet if it goes $4000 - $6800 that's understandable, but there are still a BUTTLOAD of people who will drink this cool-aid!

At $3,700 I know a lot of people who expected to buy a lot of these things as simple crash cameras!

We'll see what happens.. But relax.. The prices will be good, it will just be a matter of what you can afford.

Jay
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
We got these kinds of posts back when we were waiting for RED also.
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Hate to say it... but these posts wouldn't be here if not for Red's original predictions. Once again, I wonder why they always lowball costs and timetables. Why not be conservative/realistic?
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
At $3,700 I know a lot of people who expected to buy a lot of these things as simple crash cameras!
Jay
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Ha. I have been saving for well over a year and a half. Just barely hit the +4K mark. The day I can afford that kind of cash as a "crash camera" will be an awesome day.
 
For all of you worrying about price, don't panic too much. Do remember that all Jim said was a short sentence that really we already knew "everything's subject to change." We have no real reason to believe that there won't still be something available right around the original price point published, so until Jim re-releases schedules and things later this month, I think we've kinda gotta go with the flow here.
Peace,

-Harry
 
I know what you mean, Jay. And I do trust Jim and his team that they make whatever is possible; if a 2/3 sensor RAW camera shooting out of the box is not possible for 4000$ then it is not possible right now. It would just be hard having dreamt about it for a while as you say to maybe having to let it go.

There is still hope as I kind of remember an interview with Ted where he spoke about 4000$. We'll have to see if he meant the brain or more...
 
Felix Knöchel said:
if a 2/3 sensor RAW camera shooting out of the box is not possible for 4000$ then it is not possible right now. It would just be hard having dreamt about it for a while as you say to maybe having to let it go.

There is still hope as I kind of remember an interview with Ted where he spoke about 4000$. We'll have to see if he meant the brain or more...
Click to expand...

2/3 sensors by themselves are not out of reach anymore (even FF products are getting cheaper by the day). Just look at the high def DSLR's like the 5DmkII, 7d and even the GH1 cameras. Also note that traditional videocameras (even 1/3" ones) are way overpriced these days.

Think about it. Why on earth would you throw away $4k+ for a JVC/SONY/PANASONIC/CANON videocamera when you can get a DSLR that gets you better results for half the price? All of the prosumer videocameras record video in a compressed format of sorts (even h.264) anyway.

What's so nice about scarlet is that it does what DSLR's (interchangeable lenses, good sensor, manual settings, etc) BUT instead of encoding in h.264 it records directly to raw files. A VERY weak point IMO is that it still has a 2/3" sensor when we are seeing the industry moving to better ones.

IMO the strategy for RED scarlet has had to change a lot in these past months, because not only is it competing against traditional prosumer videocameras, but ever since the 5DmkII came out, it is also competing against HD video capable DSLRs which in a way also do most of what Red DSMC's do.

Strong points of new DSLR's vs. prosumer cameras (as of today):

a) Price
b) Interchangeable lenses
c) Some h.264 codecs (Canon 7D) are actually getting better than HDV.
d) SENSOR sizes, which give us s35+ like DOF
e) Availability
f) Can also be used as a professional still camera.
g) They all do 1080p, some do 24p with over/undercrank
h) Variety and availability of HIGH quality lenses.
i) Third party support (NLE's, etc)

Strong points of prosumer video cameras vs new HD DSLRs

a) Form factor
b) Some of them have advanced (pricier) I/O interfaces.
c) Some have pro Audio
d) is there anything else? And I'm not even listing their weak points.


So Scarlets should at least do all of the above, and then more. Markets are pushing technology fastly these days, so I'm sure these strong points will feel obsolete in some months. Let's see what Nikkon comes up with next to compete against Canon and Panasonic.
 
Mauricio De la Orta said:
2/3 sensors by themselves are not out of reach anymore (even FF products are getting cheaper by the day). Just look at the high def DSLR's like the 5DmkII, 7d and even the GH1 cameras. Also note that traditional videocameras (even 1/3" ones) are way overpriced these days.

What's so nice about scarlet is that it does what DSLR's (interchangeable lenses, good sensor, manual settings, etc) BUT instead of encoding in h.264 it records directly to raw files. A VERY weak point IMO is that it still has a 2/3" sensor when we see the industry moving to bigger ones.
Click to expand...

But there's a massive difference in a sensor that records all the sensor data (à la RED) and one that has to line skip to be able to read fast enough. The fact that the 2/3" Scarlet can record the full pixel array at speeds the Canon can only dream of (even when the Canon uses hacks like line skipping) puts it way ahead of the VDSLRs, and the RAW even more so. And it's not like a 2/3" sensor isn't suitable for cinema - many films have been shot on them.

And as for people who say the s35 and FF35 models not being competitive - well, get back to me when another brand can shoot 5 MP and 21MP at 30 frames per second (respectively) with a 72 fps burst!

Harry Lipnick said:
Right...no studs because it will bolt, but I think this thing has to have electronics. I'm guessing bolts plus the two contact points (data and power.) Otherwise everything downstream of the adapter plate wouldn't have any way to talk to the brain, right?
Peace,

-Harry
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It does seem to have the connections so I think that it just provides the mechanical interface as well as having the connections to pass the data and power through. But I doubt it will have any other electronics apart from the connectors.
 
Mauricio De la Orta said:
Think about it. Why on earth would you throw away $4k+ for a JVC/SONY/PANASONIC/CANON videocamera when you can get a DSLR that gets you better results for half the price? All of the prosumer videocameras record video in a compressed format of sorts (even h.264) anyway.
.
Click to expand...

you should look at your images again. DSLR Maybe better then Canon, but then again HDV is not aspiring very high.

I think you are missing the point of red. We are not looking for something like a mark II or 7D(Which IMHO does crappy HD, and would take 720p dvchdpro or XD cam over it). We are looking for something else that does something very specific thing, and that is something that produce images of the best quality, that is most flexible in post (raw images) with few compromises at a film level not video. You can compete for last place.

I don't think RED has anything to worry from Video cameras, the major manufactures have no interest in trying to achieve what Jim is doing. The DSLR maybe a greater threat in terms of lens quality, but they still don't get it. The fact that they chose a crappy codec like h.264 for HD is evident, they utilize what is there to keep cost down. Best mass appeal. Look at the mess that is HD for proof. 720p,1080p, 1080 25i, 1080 30i............... and on and on. Long GOP? Worst case in point. Today we should have 2 flavors of HD, 1080p and 720p and a few levels of quality for codecs. Frame rates should be for effects.

The fact that there is a fixed scarlet that does 3k for may 4k is just beyond expectations . 90% are probably still dumbfounded. What it will do is push all camera development ahead 10 years (probably where it should have been now had the big guys cared)
 
Michael Dalton said:
you should look at your images again. DSLR Maybe better then Canon, but then again HDV is not aspiring very high.

I think you are missing the point of red. We are not looking for something like a mark II or 7D(Which IMHO does crappy HD, and would take 720p dvchdpro or XD cam over it). We are looking for something else that does something very specific thing, and that is something that produce images of the best quality, that is most flexible in post (raw images) with few compromises at a film level not video. You can compete for last place.

I don't think RED has anything to worry from Video cameras, the major manufactures have no interest in trying to achieve what Jim is doing. The DSLR maybe a greater threat in terms of lens quality, but they still don't get it. The fact that they chose a crappy codec like h.264 for HD is evident, they utilize what is there to keep cost down. Best mass appeal. Look at the mess that is HD for proof. 720p,1080p, 1080 25i, 1080 30i............... and on and on. Long GOP? Worst case in point. Today we should have 2 flavors of HD, 1080p and 720p and a few levels of quality for codecs. Frame rates should be for effects.

The fact that there is a fixed scarlet that does 3k for may 4k is just beyond expectations . 90% are probably still dumbfounded. What it will do is push all camera development ahead 10 years (probably where it should have been now had the big guys cared)
Click to expand...

Michael, I agree with you almost completely. H.264 is lousy when compared with raw as I pointed out in my previous post, and regarding resolution, I think it's overrated (just think about all the people out there that believe that a digital camera is better because it has more megapixels). On the other hand I firmly believe that with the current capabilites of DSLR's, things will start moving more fastly in the videocamera/dslr arena because of the competition.

When Scarlet was first announced, it's specs were WAY ahead of anything that was being offered in the market at that time, but things are moving faster these days.

Remember how much did it take to jump from SD to 720p HDV? Years. Then the jump from 720p to 1080i cameras took less than a year, and then to 1080p only months. 6 months ago you wouldn't have imagined that you could get a 1080 24p camera (even with it's limitation) with a s35 size sensor and interchangeable (fast) lens capability for just $1600 usd.

What I'm saying is that competition is getting closer to known scarlet specs faster than we thought, which makes me wonder how much time will it take one of the big brands to develop something similar to what we currently know as Scarlet? (they really need to improve their prosumer cameras in order to get people buying them again)

My guess is that Jim hasn't announced the new specs/prices/release dates for the cameras because he is giving us a big (good) surprise with the new specs that will move us forward into the future, and once more, farther away from what the other brands can offer in the short term.

... but then again, it's only my guess, and my dream :thumbup:

-M
 
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