Coming out of Beta...

[redman]

Jims really got some awesome customers.
Willing to sell your house for red.
thats dedication

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Jims really got some awesome customers.
Willing to sell your house for red.
thats dedication

Its not only dedication to Jim and his incredible product, RED ONE, it is
unconditional dedication to my dreams and projects for which I'm willing to not only sale my house but my SUV as well as anything to get my cameras.

Understanding that once my cameras are in my hands in less then one year I'll buy an other house ( even a bigger one ).

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

 

[Finner]

I have always planned to only get the EVF as I have other LCD options. I really just don't see the camera being out of Beta until the EVF's are ready to ship with the cameras and all multiple video out options are enabled.

The red team has been trying to get multiple video (EVF, LCD, SDI, HDMI) out ability for a long time now (over 6 months) and it still does not yet work. I am getting a little concerned about when or evin if multiple video out puts will even be a possibility?

 

[Brent Carter]

I have always planned to only get the EVF as I have other LCD options. I really just don't see the camera being out of Beta until the EVF's are ready to ship with the cameras and all multiple video out options are enabled.

The red team has been trying to get multiple video (EVF, LCD, SDI, HDMI) out ability for a long time now (over 6 months) and it still does not yet work. I am getting a little concerned about when or evin if multiple video out puts will even be a possibility?

EVFs have started to ship in limited quantities to customers in order of serial number. Production ramps up in February on EVFs so we should be clearing out the backorders at a quicker pace. So, I would not consider it to be within the "out of beta" discussion.

As far as multiple output options, we are working on it. We hear clearly that people are wanting this feature. I can understand people wanting what they want "now", but there is no reason for "concern". "Impatience", that I can understand.

Thanks, BC

 

[Harry Clark]

Money wired.
Extra accessories ordered.
Standing by.
Eagerly.
Harry

 

[dewaldaukema]

Jim,
Always have been in, waiting for email and list of available acc's to finalise my order and amount owed>
Best
RED#685

 

[Jim Logan]

IN ALL THE WAY! I think that Jim just wants to drive home the point that now is the time to make a firm comittment - after all RED needs to plan production schedules, order materials, and get on with growing their business. We need to remember that, even though RED is a new paradigm, it is still a for profit business and can't indefinitely hold your reservation until you decide they are up to your standards. Everything has a cutoff point and they have been VERY generous in that regard.

If there are any Doubting Thomases simply remember what the RED team has accomplished in the last two years - I don't think they are suddenly going to stop and sit on their duffs. You just have to grow & go with it.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Thanks, Brent. That helps a lot.

 

[Cisaro]

I added the rest of my accessories to my order yesterday and am waiting the final payment e-mail from Red. I have to say although I'm 'in', I'm still unsure whether this is a production model or not?

Reading the boards it concerns me that the camera boot time is over a minute. That some people are saying you can film no more than 20 mins before the fans stay on and the camera is too hot to touch; that there might be more physical changes to the body in the next 2 months pending user feedback, and that we might be waiting a long time before we have an editable codec on the PC. (Hopefully cineform can resolve some of these issues).

Im not saying Im out, I've been in since I placed my reservation in 2006 and Im not about to pull out. But I would like some assurance that these cameras are not going to be superceeded by new ones in a few months that leaves the early adopters needing to pay for upgrades.

If I hear 'no, we are shipping production worthy cameras and all the changes will be firmware only, at least for the forseeable future' then I'm in.

However, if you released a new model in April that had better heat distribution, a change in the hardware to reduce the boot time to 10 seconds, that had covers built in for all the connectors, then I'd still rather wait.

You can parallel some Bricks together into a hot swappable battery mount, you just need a good electrical engineer to help you out. Then you get infinite power. I've been working on the idea because I want to be able to do 24hr time laps in the middle of nowhere with out a gene and with out having to deviate into other equipment.

There are cheap non-mechanical heat transfer devices that work on 12 volts that you can strap to the side of the camera to pull off excess heat and keep the camera cooler. They cost like $60.
Its a fix for the heat issues, which I think suck a bit. It would be great if the camera was rated to 116 Fahrenheit.

 

[PaulClements]

As far as multiple output options, we are working on it.

Brent are you suggesting that this hasn't even been resolved for build 14 or 15 if you are still working on it?

I agree with Finner that EVF and multiple video outputs are required for a camera to be considered by the vast majority as ready or none beta. They seem to be the most common complaints about the camera.

Paul

 

[Dylan Reeve]

As one of those who won't own a camera, but will be working with the media after the fact, I most interested in what this 'Out of Beta' means for workflow and tools? Is an SDK likely to follow soon after? What about the other tool? Are codecs being licenced to other NLE manufacturers now?

That's what I'm really hanging out for... Although, hey, good luck with you EVFs and stuff guys

 

[LighthouseMEdia]

Hmmmmm....I;m not sure its fair to declare an ultimatum until the non beta versions have been released and tested I mean there is still alot of issues and some of the accessories are either unavailable or untested with latest builds etc..In all fairness how can we make a judgment call at this stage of the game? It seems like once build 15 was actually released and tested then you could make that call, and we would just have to chose are we happy with the camera where it is today enough to commit to purchase or not? But alot hinges on seeing those last remaining pieces come together.

 

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

We have had several people wait to take delivery pending "coming out of Beta". Now is the time. If they don't step up, your number will come up more quickly.

Jim

VERY good idea.. how that will reflects on other reservation numbers holders ?:huh:

 

[Anthony Gratl]

Brent are you suggesting that this hasn't even been resolved for build 14 or 15 if you are still working on it?

I agree with Finner that EVF and multiple video outputs are required for a camera to be considered by the vast majority as ready or none beta. They seem to be the most common complaints about the camera.

Paul

For me, the evf is something to wait on, and it sounds like they're coming down the pipe imminently. But the multiple video outputs has always been an important function of the basic camera. And my understanding was, and I haven't gone back to pull the quotes from Jim, although I know he mentioned it several times, was that noone had to buy the camera until the basic functions were enabled. And that was always mentioned as one of them. So this twist is somewhat confusing, given that it appears that the multiple video outputs aren't enabled in builds 14 or 15. Perhaps someone from Red could confirm that those outputs will indeed be part of one of those next two builds.....?

EDIT: by wait on the evf, I meant that I view it as a non-critical (and therefore non beta) element to the camera, unlike the multi outputs and 1080p recording

 

[Steven Caesare]

EVF isn't an accessory...

and a mount isn't really either if that is what you intended to use as your means of attaching the only lenses you have. The availability of a Nikon "dumb" mount - since it is basically a physical adaptation of a very, very, old, standard and common mount - is/was a reasonable assumption that they would have available immediately since it was announced almost from day one.

Again, I'm already in - paid for and received #206, and it does not affect me at all since I will use Birger Canon EOS smart mount or PL mount - but it's my 2 cents in support for those who planned on the Nikon mount.

Sure they're accessories, even if critical ones for you. Notice they are on the "Accessories" page of the RED site.

The camera/firmware will be out of beta before some items even go IN to beta. Other accessories may have overlapping periods. It's simply not fair to criticize Red for having a separate schedule for differing items, as if that makes the camera coming out of beta somehow an "incorrect" notion to some.

This announcement should make you happy, BTW.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Most software that is out on the market today is what I would consider beta. Lots of things are rushed to market due to internal deadlines, marketing people pushing to meet their bottom lines whether product is ready or not. We don't have to look far to see this, just check out any of the top NLEs and we all have a list of bugs. Does it mean we can't work with the technology? Of course not, we do everyday. I guess the question is where do you draw the line between beta and an acceptable production model?

In the case of Red, as it stands right now the camera seems to still be beta and they admit that. But they might have made some serious progress with these upcoming builds that will be significant enough to bring the camera into production-ready condition.

I do agree that if multiple outputs are not enabled this poses a challenge to many of us as this feature will be demanded on set. Here is a checklist of items that make it production ready to me and the status of each.

Solid PL mount (Done. Not hearing too many complaints, assume this is good to go)

EVF availability (starting to ship, ramping up production- good news)

Heat/cold specs improved (Done. Maybe not as good as some would like but they did respond and fixed problems)

Multiple Outputs (Not implemented yet. A dealbreaker if it doesn't happen this year. But Red is on it, so assume we will see it sooner rather then later)

Boot Time of 30 seconds or less (This one is subjective. For some, maybe not a dealbreaker, for others could be if it remains at the current boot time)

CF Module improvements (Numerous reports of damaged cards due to the way cards are loaded into module. Design flaw or user error?)

Battery mount (is it solid or are there issues? Reports vary. Won't consider this a dealbreaker, but there does seem to be opinion about this mount)

Formats (final frame rate capabilities, 1080P/720P firmware options, etc) I suppose the camera can be production ready with additional formats to be offered in the future.

Compression (If the compression is holding up for features that will be showing in theaters, then to me it's production ready with the caveat that improvements will continue to happen as storage gets faster, larger, and cheaper)

Accessory availability. (essentials such as the EVF, storage, batteries, etc are being delivered now so I think this qualifies Red as production ready. Things like Nikon mount, although important to many people might fall under the non-essential for camera to be called production-ready. That doesn't mean people who order one should be happy about it, but in fairness to Red, they're doing all they can to make sure the camera performs as advertised.)

Redcine/Red Alert (They are available and that means we have a way to get footage into post. But we need versions that are faster than current versions. This will come in time, but is challenging as it stands now)

Clean audio. (still awaiting thorough user testing until I can do my own but clean audio is essential to being ready for prime-time. Perhaps it's already there and user error accounts for some of the problems that have been mentioned)

I'm probably missing some things, but a short list of the things that get Red closer to being a production-ready camera for me. Obviously there are many things we'd like to see available but these are the ones I see important to getting the camera out of beta.

Steve

 

[Keith Alan Morris]

Damn, folks, its gotta be hard to cram 10 lbs of sh*t into a 5 lb bag. lets get our cameras in our grubby paws first and appreciate the builds when they come! things are gonna keep getting pushed and pushed and pushed back if every tom dick and harry has their say. Every new build has the potential to eff something else up. Just let em RELEASE THE BEAST!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Using "production used" as a basis for whether something is in beta or not is a very hit and miss technique. Lots of studios use alpha software in production because it does things nobody else can do. They also use software that is 5 years out of date because it's bullet proof. It all depends on how flexible the tool needs to be.

The more people who use it the more flexibile has to be and the more demanding the community will be of the tool. This is well demonstrated by the split between those who view the EVF as a basic feature and those who don't.

I however view cinema equipment differently from software. If my copy of Nuke crashes and I have to reboot it costs me 25 seconds of my time. If my camera goes down 40 people lose the time. There becomes that cost per second of down time equation to factor in the damage of a problem. Which is why I see most software analogies as flawed when in relation to production equipment. The exceptions in the software industry being mission critical server applications which many people depend on or client session software like Davinci.

I'm not commenting on the state of REDOne one way or another, just the Tao of "Beta".

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what Jim said but from how I read it, it is a bit odd to require an order confirmation "Because we're out of beta with Build 14" the day before Build 14 ships or possibly even will be announced. Seems like 5 days of overlap would be expected so that people can make a delivery confirmation once the initial feedback from the "non beta" cameras start coming out.

 

[Brent Carter]

Brent are you suggesting that this hasn't even been resolved for build 14 or 15 if you are still working on it?

I agree with Finner that EVF and multiple video outputs are required for a camera to be considered by the vast majority as ready or none beta. They seem to be the most common complaints about the camera.

Paul

I am not letting cats out of any bags. :tongue:

BC

 

[SF Geek]

I sure hope those cats come out of the bag sooner than later. By the way I'm going to assume that cameras 501-700 should forget about receiving a camera this month. I figure that I'll be the one to say it since it seems to be very hard for Red to admit.