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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Come on al ready!

Mark Toia said:
$95k compared to $26k
Click to expand...

Mark, I'm very curious to hear how you came about those prices.
I'm pretty sure I've invested about $40,000 (maybe more) on a MX, and
I'm thinking Epic in the range between $60,000 and $70,000.

I thought Alexa was like $65,000?

I just wanted get the facts straight. Red is definitely not a cheap
camera as a package.
 
Guys is this a forum made for red or are you guys spies from Arri? :)
Recently shooting in Prague and was filming at a telecine and the colorist had Arri footage from a recent commercial and we started talking and he said grading the Alexa footage is so much better than grading Red. Not scientific at all and maybe he was grading Alexa vs R1 without the X chip, but another angle towards Arri on commercial work.
 
Hmm .... yes I'm thinking these guys are Arri spies, LOL ... things are getting weird over there now that Epics are getting so much publicity and big feature film commitments.

Nook ... I just looked at the Alexa package from Abel, it contains a EVF, some media (CF, not SSD) ... and a bunch of cables/brackets -- doesn't even seem to include batteries ... and the total cost is $80,000.

Let's compare to the Epic ... $28,000 Brain ... $2,500 SSD Module ... 128gb SSD $1800 ... $3,200 Bomb EVF ... misc cables/rods/etc ... $1000 (just to match what's included with Alexa) ... total cost is $36,500.

(Note: these prices come from reliable threads here, but subject to change :P)

Anyway, that's less than HALF the price, for roughly the same package.

So please let's not pretend that the Epic and the Alexa are priced in the same ballpark, even though considering the specs Red could have easily made it a $100k+ camera if it were using the Arri type of business model.
 
Every day without the EPICS on the street is a good day for Alexa... so please don't give them too much time...
 
Nook Kim said:
Mark, I'm very curious to hear how you came about those prices.
I'm pretty sure I've invested about $40,000 (maybe more) on a MX, and
I'm thinking Epic in the range between $60,000 and $70,000.

I thought Alexa was like $65,000?

I just wanted get the facts straight. Red is definitely not a cheap
camera as a package.
Click to expand...

My RED one's were $17,500 US .. (both cameras need accessories, splits, rods. lenses etc..)
My EPIC X is $26,000 US (Obviously haven't got it yet) - Probably because of the early RED ONE purchases I made.

Friends Arri's (if and when he gets them) $88,000... each. (if and when they turn up) _now to be honest.. I'm not sure what that comes with.
Irrespective if its 17k to 88k or 17 to 60k.. or 17 to 40k.. the Arri is more for less image.

Anyway I dont want to beat up on Arri as It's a great solid, strong well built camera. And best of all it shoots LOGC PRO RES ! (something I wish RED did)

If he's been ripped off, tell me now so I can tell him. Anything to stop him from getting them ;)

Now that Jim said that the EPIC X's are coming out mid summer for all the X people.. now this may stall him a bit. We all bet none of us would get them till christmas next year. I'm stoked!
 
I'm assuming your friend is a good professional if he has $300k to spend on equipment?

Does he have a solid business plan to get a good return?

It sounds like your friend would be in the stage 4 of Epic delivery, can he afford to wait this long? Even the most optimistic person would think that getting 3 x stage 4 Epics with full accessories will take at least 9 months, right?

What is the RED market like in your area, will it be saturated with Epics once they launch in high volume? Would that affect his business plan?

It is important to remember that tech specs are not always the defining factor in a purchase like this. You have provided little detail about what your friend is planning with his investment, so it is very hard to say if it is an error.
 
Mark Toia said:
If he's been ripped off, tell me now so I can tell him. Anything to stop him from getting them ;)
Click to expand...

Actually, I think he made an extremely good deal, really out of this world good deal. Well ok not really, I'm just happy there's one less RED customer in line before me... :biggrin:

But seriously, he really should reconsider...
 
Another option if he can truly get the Alexas now -- and maybe this is blasphemy on a Red forum -- is to buy them now, use them for whatever projects he wanted this year, and then sell them and upgrade to the Epic late this summer they become widely available.

The Alexas should hold their value fairly well, even if they are radically outspec'd by the Epic simply because Arri produces so few of them and there will always be old-school or snobby DP's who will demand Arri gear.

With the moderate depreciation, maybe he won't be able to get six Epic-X kits after selling his three Alexas ... probably only five :P

Boom ... problem solved :)
 
Mark Toia said:
Sorry, I meant compared to an EPIC... it's big,
Compared to a RED ONE it's slow. 50fps vs 120fps
2k Pro res compared to 4K RAW...
Click to expand...

In the pursuit of accuracy:

60FPS is the top framerate.

And it does not record 2K, only 1920x1080 in Prores mode.

And you have corrected your price to the current A$ price.
 
Jim Retar said:
I'm assuming your friend is a good professional if he has $300k to spend on equipment?

Does he have a solid business plan to get a good return?

It sounds like your friend would be in the stage 4 of Epic delivery, can he afford to wait this long? Even the most optimistic person would think that getting 3 x stage 4 Epics with full accessories will take at least 9 months, right?

What is the RED market like in your area, will it be saturated with Epics once they launch in high volume? Would that affect his business plan?

It is important to remember that tech specs are not always the defining factor in a purchase like this. You have provided little detail about what your friend is planning with his investment, so it is very hard to say if it is an error.
Click to expand...


Hi Jim,

Both my friend and I don't purchase cameras to RENT.. We have our own companies that do a lot of work. These camera systems pay for them selves very easily. I invested 300k in my RED kits and had it paid off in less than a year just from shooting our own produced work.
You don't have to spend 300k on a RED kit to work hi end. Some of my best jobs have been with a very very basic RED setups with the RED ZOOMS on. (including that snow reference I put up earlier)

Remember now, good cameras are really cheap compared to what they were 5 years ago. A good ARRI 435 kit (with no lenses) would cost you around 350k. A SONY digi betacam PAL / NTSC camera was 190K..
Now you can buy a 4k red camera ready to shoot a feature film with RED lenses the lot.. for about 70k. I've seen RED cameras shooting great images for less than 30k. Huge difference compared to the old days.

So if your smart and you have consistent work coming in, you don't rent cameras as your throwing money straight out the door of your own business. You buy it! keep it, bill it into the job your working on as if you have rented it.. and BANG! no more money flying out the door. Nothing but profit !

Business is simple mathematics.

Some of our projects are so big, the rental alone can buy a new REDONE body for every job. chuck the old one in the bin. (not that you would). You don't even worry about insurance on them these days as they insurance yearly premiums and Access if lost or damaged is sometimes as much as the body. (depending on your insurer and were you live of course) . So yes cheap cheap cheap.. compared to 5 to 10 years ago.

Here is another way to look at it.
Get a 2 year bank loan for the gear, it's the same as renting it.. no difference. other than you get to keep the equipment rather than returning it. Simple math here goes.
Average RED kit rental with a few small lenses.. Say. ($2000 per day) The whole kit cost $75,000. (thats a good kit).
So per year, you hire that kit from a rental house for 20 days per year, (thats no much shooting per year)
So thats $40,000 worth of rental cost per year.. paid by the production. x 2 years... gear paid off.

Thing is, if you do it this way, You have the gear for 365 days per year. not 20... simple math right.

If you want to turn yourself into a little (back of the house) rental company, then... Your in for some hurt.
As these cameras (including Arri) are so cheap now, everyone will be buying them (with the same intentions) and hardly anyone will be renting. So your market will be very very small and the big rental house will out perform you in price because they can and they will have more and better gear to rent out.

So yes to your question jim. My friend does have a very good business plan and it does not encompass renting it the gear out.
 
Mark Toia said:
Hi Jim,

Both my friend and I don't purchase cameras to RENT.. We have our own companies that do a lot of work. These camera systems pay for them selves very easily. I invested 300k in my RED kits and had it paid off in less than a year just from shooting our own produced work.
You don't have to spend 300k on a RED kit to work hi end. Some of my best jobs have been with a very very basic RED setups with the RED ZOOMS on. (including that snow reference I put up earlier)

Remember now, good cameras are really cheap compared to what they were 5 years ago. A good ARRI 435 kit (with no lenses) would cost you around 350k. A SONY digi betacam PAL / NTSC camera was 190K..
Now you can buy a 4k red camera ready to shoot a feature film with RED lenses the lot.. for about 70k. I've seen RED cameras shooting great images for less than 30k. Huge difference compared to the old days.

So if your smart and you have consistent work coming in, you don't rent cameras as your throwing money straight out the door of your own business. You buy it! keep it, bill it into the job your working on as if you have rented it.. and BANG! no more money flying out the door. Nothing but profit !

Business is simple mathematics.

Some of our projects are so big, the rental alone can buy a new REDONE body for every job. chuck the old one in the bin. (not that you would). You don't even worry about insurance on them these days as they insurance yearly premiums and Access if lost or damaged is sometimes as much as the body. (depending on your insurer and were you live of course) . So yes cheap cheap cheap.. compared to 5 to 10 years ago.

Here is another way to look at it.
Get a 2 year bank loan for the gear, it's the same as renting it.. no difference. other than you get to keep the equipment rather than returning it. Simple math here goes.
Average RED kit rental with a few small lenses.. Say. ($2000 per day) The whole kit cost $75,000. (thats a good kit).
So per year, you hire that kit from a rental house for 20 days per year, (thats no much shooting per year)
So thats $40,000 worth of rental cost per year.. paid by the production. x 2 years... gear paid off.

Thing is, if you do it this way, You have the gear for 365 days per year. not 20... simple math right.

If you want to turn yourself into a little (back of the house) rental company, then... Your in for some hurt.
As these cameras (including Arri) are so cheap now, everyone will be buying them (with the same intentions) and hardly anyone will be renting. So your market will be very very small and the big rental house will out perform you in price because they can and they will have more and better gear to rent out.

So yes to your question jim. My friend does have a very good business plan and it does not encompass renting it the gear out.
Click to expand...

Great post Mark, and great work of course.

One thing that seems to contradict what you've written is that most Red owners (even those in small markets) have successfully helped pay for their cameras via rentals. Granted, many times it was packaging themselves into the project as camera operator or DIT but still ... many small productions rent Red rather than buying, so there is a market for rentals.

And yes, the bigger rental companies will always have the edge ... more stock, backups, better accessory/lens selection, better support, etc ... it does seem that the small guy can compete if he offers the right package. At least enough to help finance the gear.

I started a thread about this in the Epic section, but basically I may use rentals (with me working on the job) to help finance the equipment. Just to defray costs (since I won't take out a bank loan, it's all out of pocket). This will help me have better short-term cash reserves, since much of my work is more long-term compensated based on ownership of the businesses we are shooting for.

Overall, I agree with you though ... let's say that you buy an Epic-X package (with all the media, pro i/o module, grip, LCD, etc for a total of $60,000) and then two Optimo Rouge lenses for $40,000. That's $100,000 -- and yet rentals on that would easily be $2,000 per day ... only 50 days to make that up, and that's not even including what you bill for the work.

So really it's not all that difficult to recoup the expense and profit, if you have enough possible clients in the pipeline. Again I agree with you -- I think that's the biggest revolution Red has bring about ... it's pricepoint, service and community support OWNERSHIP ... overall, I think will lead to far greater filmmaking (for many reasons) but especially because the camera operators become far better masters of their gear.

Anthony
 
Thanks Mark... but I was making the point that if he feels he can make his money back on the Alexa (via production work/renting or any means), then it is not a mistake.

You are passionate about the RED, as most of us are here... but that does not mean that every other purchase should be classed as a mistake.

Tech specs, pricing etc are all relative to the money you can make with your investment.
 
I think Alexa's greatest appeal is that it drops seamlessly into the FCP/Prores work flow environment. For those that have long history and highly refined skills in that environment it is an easy and comfortable choice to make.
 
Jim Retar said:
Thanks Mark... but I was making the point that if he feels he can make his money back on the Alexa (via production work/renting or any means), then it is not a mistake.

You are passionate about the RED, as most of us are here... but that does not mean that every other purchase should be classed as a mistake.

Tech specs, pricing etc are all relative to the money you can make with your investment.
Click to expand...

yep

true..
 
Sorry Anthony... Should have clarified myself.
I meant in the near future when everyone starts to buy there own cameras because they can afford them.
Once agin, Why Rent a camera for 40k for 20 days usage when you can have one for 365 days a year for the same money... If you don't use a camera for any more than 19 days a year.. RENT it.

RED or Arri haven't made any or enough cameras yet to kill or slow the rental market just yet.. but will soon.
The 5D has killed massive amounts of hi end camera hires. I no people at Panavison that would love to blow up CANON and even RED. But they can't, so they join em.. They have bought about 20 5d kits, 5 RED cameras, 2 Arris Alexies... while there film cameras are sitting idle in the shelves most days.
And there hires are still getting smaller because people are realizing that they can in-fact own there gear for well less than the rental outgoings per year.

The EPIC will take the rest of the rental market once they flood the market.
Arri's will come down in price once EPICS take over the market... It will come down to shortly were Camera Assistants and focus pullers are buying camera gear and renting it with them selves trying to keep the work coming in. It's happening now, I'm seeing heaps of this going on already. I get emails weekly with focus pullers doing this.. They are all looking to make extra cash if possible. I can see why. But when I call they say it;s tough becuase alot of people have got there own cameras now so they can't rent there's.
I'm seeing many production companies like myself buying several 5d and RED kits... why? Keeping the money in house. Having cameras on tap 365 days a year with out begging or renting. Profits stay within and better production values come from it.

It's just a natural thing that happens in the film industry and will keep happening.

It's a pity... but its true.

Ohh.. and yes I'm a RED fan. But to be honest, If Arri came out with a camera as small as EPIC, As cheap as EPIC. with specs as good or better than EPIC... I'd jump ship in an instant.
I'm only a FAN of price and performance, not brand names.

Thanks Anthony. I respect your feedback :)

AnthonyFlores said:
Great post Mark, and great work of course.

One thing that seems to contradict what you've written is that most Red owners (even those in small markets) have successfully helped pay for their cameras via rentals. Granted, many times it was packaging themselves into the project as camera operator or DIT but still ... many small productions rent Red rather than buying, so there is a market for rentals.

And yes, the bigger rental companies will always have the edge ... more stock, backups, better accessory/lens selection, better support, etc ... it does seem that the small guy can compete if he offers the right package. At least enough to help finance the gear.

I started a thread about this in the Epic section, but basically I may use rentals (with me working on the job) to help finance the equipment. Just to defray costs (since I won't take out a bank loan, it's all out of pocket). This will help me have better short-term cash reserves, since much of my work is more long-term compensated based on ownership of the businesses we are shooting for.

Overall, I agree with you though ... let's say that you buy an Epic-X package (with all the media, pro i/o module, grip, LCD, etc for a total of $60,000) and then two Optimo Rouge lenses for $40,000. That's $100,000 -- and yet rentals on that would easily be $2,000 per day ... only 50 days to make that up, and that's not even including what you bill for the work.

So really it's not all that difficult to recoup the expense and profit, if you have enough possible clients in the pipeline. Again I agree with you -- I think that's the biggest revolution Red has bring about ... it's pricepoint, service and community support OWNERSHIP ... overall, I think will lead to far greater filmmaking (for many reasons) but especially because the camera operators become far better masters of their gear.

Anthony
Click to expand...
 
David Rasberry said:
I think Alexa's greatest appeal is that it drops seamlessly into the FCP/Prores work flow environment. For those that have long history and highly refined skills in that environment it is an easy and comfortable choice to make.
Click to expand...

I so dig those Arri 444 LOGc PRO RES files..
I so wish RED would do this too... but using there REDLOG2.
(not worrying much though at this point in time. As I make these in real time anyway. But would love them straight out of the camera thats for sure.
 
What's your poor mate going to do when you are going to offer lower rates for better quality. He'll need to pick clients that really feel the need to get their moneys worth by having a real film looking camera on set. But considering that those same clients are going to loose out to their competition because they are spending too much and getting an inferior product, he's got about 8 months of deception left. Then his cameras will be worth maybe half their price. Can't you slap common sense into him?
 
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