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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Color Grading Monitor

G

Geoff Arnold

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So far I've seen more opinions than there are pixels in a frame. please help. need to find the best monitor for the money (<6,000$) CRT or LCD for color Grading.
Thanks, Geoff
 
Jonathan Stevenson said:
I heard that, with any LCD display (particularly Apple) you can turn your monitor into a properly calibrated color grading monitor using the Matrox MXO box...
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You can't magically turn a monitor that cannot show anything close to true blacks into one that does regardless of what you use. Nor can you turn a monitor with too small a contrast ratio into one with a proper contrast ratio. A computer monitor is a computer monitor. A proper video monitor is something quite different, even if the technology seems to a layperson to be basically the same.
 
Jvc d24l1d

Jvc d24l1d

I've timed two Red features (and a DV project) on this monitor, feeding it with the HDSDI output of a Kona 3 card, and I've found the colors, highlights, and shadow details to be highly accurate to any properly set up venue. Runs about $3K USD. Has free calibration software that can write to its NVRAM if you have Windows (works with Parallels) and a particular calibration sensor (which runs under $100).

That's my two cents.
 
kandyd said:
I've timed two Red features (and a DV project) on this monitor, feeding it with the HDSDI output of a Kona 3 card, and I've found the colors, highlights, and shadow details to be highly accurate to any properly set up venue. Runs about $3K USD. Has free calibration software that can write to its NVRAM if you have Windows (works with Parallels) and a particular calibration sensor (which runs under $100).
Click to expand...

The JVC (I believe the actual model number is DT-V24L1U with DVI only, or the DT-V24L1DU, which has HD-SDI) is a pretty good choice in the low price range. Its downside is that the viewing angle is very limited - the blacks fall off very rapidly. If you can view it directly on axis, however, it's probably one of the more accurate LCD's out there. It should also be pointed out that it is a video monitor, not a computer monitor - a major point in its favor that differentiates it from things like an Apple Cinema Display. I found it to be superior to the Panasonic monitors that are in approximately the same range, and are very popular for production. The Panasonics have a much wider viewing angle, but the blacks in particular are not nearly as well defined or accurate.
 
I use a combination of a TVLogic 24" LCD w/ ND glass and a Sony CRT broadcast monitor. The TVLogic was calibrated with a Klein probe.

It gets me by, but there are far better solutions. Problem is, they are far outside my budget. If I'm working on a project that has budget that commands high end end monitors, it's either a rental or that project gets sent to a facility that has the proper monitoring. The will also have the most important part of the equation - a good colorist.
 
Good solution is Apple 24" Cinema Display with Matrox MXO.

http://www.matrox.com/video/en/products/mxo/workflow/

-shooter



Inexpensive HD monitoring

Matrox MXO turns your Apple Cinema Display or other DVI monitor into an artifact-free, true-color video display you can trust, even for color grading. It’s packed with features that make it the ideal monitoring solution for Final Cut Pro, Apple Color, Adobe After Effects, and other QuickTime-based applications. You won’t need to buy expensive HD monitoring equipment or the SDI-to-DVI converter required for preview with some I/O cards. In addition, MXO’s realtime downscaling feature also lets you view your HD projects on an SD monitor.
 
I wish there were something in the 1080 24" range with quality similar to the Panasonics... and that I could run without having to by an expensive card on top of the $3000 or a bit more that it would cost.
 
USlatin said:
I wish there were something in the 1080 24" range with quality similar to the Panasonics... and that I could run without having to by an expensive card on top of the $3000 or a bit more that it would cost.
Click to expand...

I often wish people here would stop looking at things in terms of their cost and whether they can personally afford them for their own personal use. Professional specialty equipment - like monitors that are accurate enough for reliable color work - costs what it costs. One needs to look at their work as a business in order to really understand these pricing structures. In a business, the cost of anything is only relevant to what it can generate in terms of revenue. So if using professional equipment will allow you to do work for clients that are demanding of that kind of accuracy, and who expect you to be using this level of equipment, it can be said that the equipment is justified because it gives you the ability to generate that kind of work. If something costs $1 million, but can help to generate $2 million, then the cost is justified. If it costs $20 but can't generate more than $5, it's not justified. The price tag alone has no bearing on its true business value. Of course, if one looks at the production and post production world as a hobby, or as personal investment, this may not apply. But at the same time, one should not expect the specialty equipment needed and used by high end professionals in any industry to come down to commodity levels when there isn't a large consumer market for them.
 
I color-correct a national cable show on a Panasonic LCD (cut over 40 episodes of this series, 30+ on the Panasonic). It works. The show looks good when broadcast. Is the monitor perfect, no, but it is great bang for the buck. Higher-end, I'd look at eCinema and Cine-tal.
 
Rowland said:
I color-correct a national cable show on a Panasonic LCD (cut over 40 episodes of this series, 30+ on the Panasonic). It works. The show looks good when broadcast. Is the monitor perfect, no, but it is great bang for the buck. Higher-end, I'd look at eCinema and Cine-tal.
Click to expand...

We tried the Panasonic 24 inch, but found that in a color correction environment - a proper color correction environment, with low level lighting of the proper color temperature and proper gray walls - the lightness of the blacks and their inability to cleanly define low level detail made it unacceptable. There was less of this tendency with the JVC, although ultimately, we stayed with CRT's because it was far superior to either of them. One of the characteristics of LCD's is that they tend to look more accurate in higher level lighting, especially the blacks (being a transmissive technology, the always present ambient level of the backlight through the LCD mask is more noticeable when the ambient light in the room is lower). The problem is that a traditional color correction environment doesn't have that, so the problems and limitations become more magnified as the ambient light is dimmed. If you're working in a room that is more typical of an editing environment, with more ambient light, the problems are minimized, but so is the ability of a colorist to make critical color determinations. This is less of an issue with emissive technologies, like CRT's and plasmas, but the problem with most plasmas is that the color gamut is not accurate for Rec 709 work - which is what almost all color correction that is not for a film DI is done in these days.
 
Is there a bullit-proof solution documented out there somewhere dealing with EACH & EVERY link in the color chain?

Because it is like having a recipe for baking cookies and instead of sugar you use salt just because it is also white, I mean that unless everything is calibrated and in sync it really makes no point if the ideal is to achieve "The what you see is what you get" Critical Creative Decisions that the Artist-Operator makes. It makes a difference, doesn`t it?

Is this the Holy Grail? Or where is this knowledge-All Of It?

But there seems to be always one piece missing. Is that deliberate so that a fee can be extorted or is that a genuine limitation of tecnologies and their inherent incompatibilities?

I just got a FW900. What are some options for a decent External WaveForm & VectorScope to compliment that?

I want to build around a Adobe-Color Finesse-Combustion WorkFlow.

Also I hear so much chatter about the importance of Luts & 3d Luts...I don`t get it at all...Yet.

Is that the Secret KEY that will insure 100% precisision beyond the shadow of a doubt concerning color accuracy through each faze down to the very end of the line to the various screens and environments where it will be viewed?

Is that something that is transferable or is it a secret sauce kind of thing that each Chef needs to concock themselves? Or is it something you pay for? If so how much and where-from who?



DogDay.




_______
 
There is work being done on a standard "Color Decision List" similar to an EDL, which should end up being what you're talking about - a universal description of a color correction.

That said, if your gear's not calibrated, it will be a universal description of a possibly bad color correction...
 
Nick Wolf said:
Is there a bullit-proof solution documented out there somewhere dealing with EACH & EVERY link in the color chain?
Is that the Secret KEY that will insure 100% precisision beyond the shadow of a doubt concerning color accuracy through each faze down to the very end of the line to the various screens and environments where it will be viewed?

Is that something that is transferable or is it a secret sauce kind of thing that each Chef needs to concock themselves? Or is it something you pay for? If so how much and where-from who?
Click to expand...

I'm going to give you an answer which I think is obvious, but these days sometimes seem to need to be said. The answer is that as with many things in this industry and this world, being a true professional and understanding all of these things requires time and experience. Color science and color management is handled at nearly every professional facility I know of by seasoned pros who have been doing this for a long time. There's a reason for that. And unless you have that kind of experience, it's a bit difficult to understand (or explain) why you need it. If you think you're going to find some kind of magical DVD that's going to tell you everything one needs to know in 30 minutes, forget it. You can get to a certain level of "good enough" faking of it by following a recipe, but you really can't completely grasp it without a lot of time and experience. That's simply the way it is.
 
mmost said:
I'm going to give you an answer which I think is obvious, but these days sometimes seem to need to be said. The answer is that as with many things in this industry and this world, being a true professional and understanding all of these things requires time and experience. Color science and color management is handled at nearly every professional facility I know of by seasoned pros who have been doing this for a long time. There's a reason for that. And unless you have that kind of experience, it's a bit difficult to understand (or explain) why you need it. If you think you're going to find some kind of magical DVD that's going to tell you everything one needs to know in 30 minutes, forget it. You can get to a certain level of "good enough" faking of it by following a recipe, but you really can't completely grasp it without a lot of time and experience. That's simply the way it is.
Click to expand...

I think the goal of everyone to us is to have the budgets to hire those seasoned pros, or eventually the ability and experience to become one of them ourselves.
In the meantime many of us are at the lower rungs of the ladder here. So given that, what would you suggest as reasonable interim solutions to get good (not great) consistent grading at a relatively lower cost?

Greg
 
shooter said:
Good solution is Apple 24" Cinema Display with Matrox MXO.

http://www.matrox.com/video/en/products/mxo/workflow/

-shooter

projects on an SD monitor.
Click to expand...

Apparently, endorsing this product makes us "laypersons."

NO, it's not the BEST option for color correcting, but it's certainly the cheapest if you want a color grade that's pretty accurate...

OF COURSE the good stuff is expensive. That's the way it is. It sucks when people get angry at others for wanting a cheaper option. Not everyone is rich and has a Da Vinci in their basement. :weight_lift:
 
mmost said:
Color science and color management is handled at nearly every professional facility I know of by seasoned pros who have been doing this for a long time. There's a reason for that. And unless you have that kind of experience, it's a bit difficult to understand (or explain) why you need it. If you think you're going to find some kind of magical DVD that's going to tell you everything one needs to know in 30 minutes, forget it. You can get to a certain level of "good enough" faking of it by following a recipe, but you really can't completely grasp it without a lot of time and experience. That's simply the way it is.
Click to expand...

Michael,

Fair Enough=You are absolutely right. And just because I persist doesnt mean that I disguard what you are saying. I know it takes years & years to get good at anything. I know that.

I am not looking for a short cut I am looking for a good compatable External WaveForm & VectorScope. I am not aspiring to become a "Colorist" myself but I do want to grasp as much as I can through books, experience, forums, mistakes, observing, etc.

Why do I want that? I am not nor will ever be a Tech guy. But when I leave my work over into the capable hands of a professional colorist I want to be able to communicate and understand WTF is going on.

Does that sound unreasonable to you? I want to know why so much out there looks like crap. And why what works works. To seperate the tools from the sensibility behind them operating.

Maybe I should just pay someone who works with this to cough up the straight answers so I don`t waste more time or cash going around in circles. I don`t mean a "How To" DVD I mean where are the faults in the pipe line and what are the solutions to adress them.

Anyone want a Job as a consultant?


Nick.
 
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