Color Correctionist/Grader needed for Feature shot on RED

[Tim Whitcomb]

Its called a Quantel Pablo 4K iQ. Ingest direct from external drive ,(Super fast with RR support now) start grading right away...even while ingesting!

again, its all about the Colorist. Shane rocked tons of vignettes, masks, not just balances, etc...
8 year Quantel operator doesnt hurt... he is just aa PRO... every market has different pricing. time. etc.
so every project has challenges... but when you want client present real time finishing
(you can edit and fine tune in timeline, composite, add titles, AND grade multi layers.)
Quantel is hard to beat.

the Pablo with NEO and 5 MME engines is sick fast. Then apply multple stored looks (LUTS) to multiple scenes. any resolution, format codecs,plays on timeline, etc. doesnt matter and when done, push a button for export to any standard...

this is why Im guessing, the suite costs more than the artist.

 

[NateWeaver]

It has nothing to do with the speed of the gear, and little to do with the speed of the colorist. It just takes time to figure out what you want for every scene.

 

[Frank Cueto]

I agree with Nate on this. No matter how fast your gear is for this kind of process. It's not like you are grading while the movie plays in front of you. We grade on a Baselight1 (8core GPU, no slouch) and seldomly the session grinds to a halt or even slows down because of the render. Besides, when you are grading you can always switch to 2K or even 1K.

-Frank Cueto

Now, grain reduction is a BITCH at 4k....

-Frank Cueto

 

[jake blackstone]

Ive seen Jake fix a music video combining
Scratch
REDCine
and Lustre.
A music video is only 4 min long 4min 30 seconds tops and it took days.

1 to 2 days to do an entire feature length film RED footage?
20 hrs will it look good?

Something just dont sound right.
Have you ever seen something that fast done Jake?

Any high end DI place, i.e. EFilm, Ascent Media etc will generally finish a feature in no less than 2 weeks at the cost of around $250k. But this is not the case. This is a very low budget student film. I have been at the screening of this feature and I assure you, that to do anything reasonably resembling feature grading would take no less of a week of GRADING. And conforming? forget about it...

 

[M Most]

I agree with Nate on this. No matter how fast your gear is for this kind of process. It's not like you are grading while the movie plays in front of you.

Actually, I used to do quite a bit of that when I first started. And even today, with a DaVinci, a really fast colorist often lets the material roll over several shots, adjusting on the fly, before going back and checking/tweaking as needed. On software based systems, that's generally not possible, but when you're playing live video through a DaVinci 2K, it's not an uncommon technique for really experienced, fast colorists (especially those working in television). You wouldn't go through the entire show that way, but I and others I have seen would often go through an entire scene in virtually real time, popping in earlier corrections as needed, and making tweaks along the way, all without stopping the material.

A lost art, I know....

 

[jake blackstone]

Its called a Quantel Pablo 4K iQ. Ingest direct from external drive ,(Super fast with RR support now) start grading right away...even while ingesting!

again, its all about the Colorist. Shane rocked tons of vignettes, masks, not just balances, etc...
8 year Quantel operator doesnt hurt... he is just aa PRO... every market has different pricing. time. etc.
so every project has challenges... but when you want client present real time finishing
(you can edit and fine tune in timeline, composite, add titles, AND grade multi layers.)
Quantel is hard to beat.

the Pablo with NEO and 5 MME engines is sick fast. Then apply multple stored looks (LUTS) to multiple scenes. any resolution, format codecs,plays on timeline, etc. doesnt matter and when done, push a button for export to any standard...

this is why Im guessing, the suite costs more than the artist.

Actually vignette is a type of a mask... Has Pablo been around 8 years? Being a Paint Box, Henry, Harry or IQ operator doesn't prepare someone to be a colorist. I guess that's why he cranks them out in 1 or 2 days The biggest bottleneck for feature grading is not the real time playback or render or ingect, but the ability to select multiple scenes for grading. All high end system can resort the timeline by the recorded timecode, so this is a huge time saver, but they still need to be selected and grades need to be applied and scenes need to be matched. And on lower budget features you'd have to work even harder to grade, as the exposures aren't as well controlled, as in higher end features. Again, I have seen this particular movie and it needs A LOT of work...

 

[jake blackstone]

Actually, I used to do quite a bit of that when I first started. And even today, with a DaVinci, a really fast colorist often lets the material roll over several shots, adjusting on the fly, before going back and checking/tweaking as needed. On software based systems, that's generally not possible, but when you're playing live video through a DaVinci 2K, it's not an uncommon technique for really experienced, fast colorists (especially those working in television). You wouldn't go through the entire show that way, but I and others I have seen would often go through an entire scene in virtually real time, popping in earlier corrections as needed, and making tweaks along the way, all without stopping the material.

A lost art, I know....

Actually we did a lot of this kind of work at Modern Videofilm. We had just two guys, who would do nothing, but "tape to tape" type of work. They just would use the keyboard to recall saved corrections in the timeline. They would actually almost never even touch the trackballs. They would do a show like "Friends" in about 3 hours. But dailies for that kind of grading would have to be very consistent.

 

[Frank Cueto]

Actually, I used to do quite a bit of that when I first started. And even today, with a DaVinci, a really fast colorist often lets the material roll over several shots, adjusting on the fly, before going back and checking/tweaking as needed. On software based systems, that's generally not possible, but when you're playing live video through a DaVinci 2K, it's not an uncommon technique for really experienced, fast colorists (especially those working in television). You wouldn't go through the entire show that way, but I and others I have seen would often go through an entire scene in virtually real time, popping in earlier corrections as needed, and making tweaks along the way, all without stopping the material.

A lost art, I know....

JaJaJa, not really a lost art, but what you described sounds like you have events already laid out or something similar. We do grade like that on our Davinci, and its indeed fast, but on these DI systems, you have soooo many more tools that we find the work just doesnt go as fast if you start getting into heavy keys/splines/transfer modes and tracks...

We had a client that would tell the colorist to load the film on the telecine, hit play on the davinci, crash record to digibeta and had the colorist correct in real-time as the footage played. All because he didn't want to spend more than one or two hours of telecine time on his footage (Regeaton music videos, Maybe you heard of this guy (you used to work at Cineworks, right?)... Impelluso ring a bell?

-Frank Cueto

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Actually vignette is a type of a mask... Has Pablo been around 8 years? Being a Paint Box, Henry, Harry or IQ operator doesn't prepare someone to be a colorist. I guess that's why he cranks them out in 1 or 2 days The biggest bottleneck for feature grading is not the real time playback or render or ingect, but the ability to select multiple scenes for grading. All high end system can resort the timeline by the recorded timecode, so this is a huge time saver, but they still need to be selected and grades need to be applied and scenes need to be matched. And on lower budget features you'd have to work even harder to grade, as the exposures aren't as well controlled, as in higher end features. Again, I have seen this particular movie and it needs A LOT of work...

well all I can go by is my personal experience. It was a LOT of stuff, and took 10 hours a day full bore... and turned out fine for a $200K indie. He pulled some miracles masking out mic stands/flag shadows as well as grading primary and secondaries. He has 8 years experience as a COlorist
yes. and IQ came out in 2002 I believe.

THis is a low-budget indie film we are talking about here... and that was my context.

 

[M Most]

Actually we did a lot of this kind of work at Modern Videofilm. We had just two guys, who would do nothing, but "tape to tape" type of work. They just would use the keyboard to recall saved corrections in the timeline. They would actually almost never even touch the trackballs. They would do a show like "Friends" in about 3 hours. But dailies for that kind of grading would have to be very consistent.

One of the great things about a DaVinci 2K (and the Renaissance before it) are the number of save buffers, with instant recall via panel buttons, but another one is the presence of two very specific buttons, one for recalling the correction of the previous event, and another for recalling the correction of the 2nd event back. So if you're correcting a scene that is basically cutting back and forth between singles, you can just leave the tape playing and hit the "2nd event back" button on each cut. You get through a scene in practically real time that way. When one is looking for pure efficiency, you can never have enough dedicated buttons.

 

[M Most]

We had a client that would tell the colorist to load the film on the telecine, hit play on the davinci, crash record to digibeta and had the colorist correct in real-time as the footage played. All because he didn't want to spend more than one or two hours of telecine time on his footage (Regeaton music videos, Maybe you heard of this guy (you used to work at Cineworks, right?)... Impelluso ring a bell?

No, not really. He must have been there before I arrived.

 

[jake blackstone]

One of the great things about a DaVinci 2K (and the Renaissance before it) are the number of save buffers, with instant recall via panel buttons, but another one is the presence of two very specific buttons, one for recalling the correction of the previous event, and another for recalling the correction of the 2nd event back. So if you're correcting a scene that is basically cutting back and forth between singles, you can just leave the tape playing and hit the "2nd event back" button on each cut. You get through a scene in practically real time that way. When one is looking for pure efficiency, you can never have enough dedicated buttons.

Actually Lustre has the exact same recall the grade buttons and the functionality, but there is no need to do it in real time anymore. All one has to do is to select the desired scenes, copy the grade there and just play it through. Those tape to tape guys would've killed for that kind of functionality and speed. Actually, on number of occasions, I had watched those guys work and they were so good, that they would remember quite a number of grades back, so as they roll by, they just would hit recall "-1". "-3" "-4" etc. in real time. I couldn't believe my eyes...

 

[M Most]

Actually Lustre has the exact same recall the grade buttons and the functionality, but there is no need to do it in real time anymore. All one has to do is to select the desired scenes, copy the grade there and just play it through. Those tape to tape guys would've killed for that kind of functionality and speed. Actually, on number of occasions, I had watched those guys work and they were so good, that they would remember quite a number of grades back, so as they roll by, they just would hit recall "-1". "-3" "-4" etc. in real time. I couldn't believe my eyes...

I've done the "select the scenes and copy" method (on Scratch, Baselight, and numerous other systems) and I've done the DaVinci direct access buttons (over many years), and quite frankly, the DaVinci approach was always faster. Not as "cool," but faster.

 

[Joshua Brown]

Actually Lustre has the exact same recall the grade buttons and the functionality, but there is no need to do it in real time anymore. All one has to do is to select the desired scenes, copy the grade there and just play it through. Those tape to tape guys would've killed for that kind of functionality and speed. Actually, on number of occasions, I had watched those guys work and they were so good, that they would remember quite a number of grades back, so as they roll by, they just would hit recall "-1". "-3" "-4" etc. in real time. I couldn't believe my eyes...

Pretty much the same thing applies to Color. It may not have special capabilities most suited to film out, but it can handle almost anything you throw at it.

-J.A.Brown

 

[jake blackstone]

Pretty much the same thing applies to Color. It may not have special capabilities most suited to film out, but it can handle almost anything you throw at it.

-J.A.Brown

Yes, you can copy grades in Color and no, it's not very useful feature in real life situations. Let me give you an example. You just had finished grading your project and the client decides, that now he wants the whole project to be a bit warmer. What do you do in Color? Copying grades wouldn't do you any good. On Baselight and Lustre, you just select everything and do a group grade and you done. What about, if you added a little diffusion only in the highlights, but the client now thinks that it's a bit too much. Do you go in and hand tweak every event? In Lustre just tweak one event and copy just that tweak to the whole project. In fact, in Lustre you can copy almost any parameter in the event (primary, secondary, geometry, effects etc) and paste it to any event(s) or a group. Can Color do this? Actually, right now even Baselight can't do this with the same finesse. But they're working on it Remember, those are just the tools. What do you do with them is up to you. Just because Pablo cost 300 to 400 times the price of Color, doesn't mean, that the job will be done that much faster or with better result. Does Color have most of the creative tools, that other high end system deploy? Yes. Can it do it all as fast and efficient? No...

 

[Joshua Brown]

Yes, you can copy grades in Color and no, it's not very useful feature in real life situations. Let me give you an example. You just had finished grading your project and the client decides, that now he wants the whole project to be a bit warmer. What do you do in Color? Copying grades wouldn't do you any good. On Baselight and Lustre, you just select everything and do a group grade and you done. What about, if you added a little diffusion only in the highlights, but the client now thinks that it's a bit too much. Do you go in and hand tweak every event? In Lustre just tweak one event and copy just that tweak to the whole project. In fact, in Lustre you can copy almost any parameter in the event (primary, secondary, geometry, effects etc) and paste it to any event(s) or a group. Can Color do this? Actually, right now even Baselight can't do this with the same finesse. But they're working on it Remember, those are just the tools. What do you do with them is up to you. Just because Pablo cost 300 to 400 times the price of Color, doesn't mean, that the job will be done that much faster or with better result. Does Color have most of the creative tools, that other high end system deploy? Yes. Can it do it all as fast and efficient? No...

I completely agree. Hence my statement... It can do most things quite well. And actually you could do a whole timeline color warm with a secondary if you simply had to.

-J.A.Brown

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

you guys seriously need to demo the Pablo with NEO panel. Give Michael Cioni a call.
Im not colorist, but that machine was effin sick fast. You can store ALL your looks on a number of shots in a separate timeline via thumbnails, and click and apply those grades to any new scene.

Jake- Ascent Media requires 2 weeks and $250K? really? David Block, a Quantel colorist there begs to differ... He has never spent 2 weeks on a film. Maybe the Davinici artists do... I wouldnt know. But where are you getting this information?

Not wanting to cause a battle. Just curious. Thanks

 

[M Most]

you guys seriously need to demo the Pablo with NEO panel.....
Im not colorist, but that machine was effin sick fast. You can store ALL your looks on a number of shots in a separate timeline via thumbnails, and click and apply those grades to any new scene.

Well, I AM a colorist, and I can tell you through experience that none of these systems are "effin sick fast" compared to any of the others. They all have convenience features, they all (well, at least Lustre, Baselight, Resolve, Film Master, and Pablo) have very extensive, very efficient custom control panels with direct access to all common functions (and some not so common ones), and they all do a great job. It is the experience and dexterity of the operator that is in question, not the particular system. I get it, you like Quantel because you worked with someone who was experienced with Quantel systems and can operate it fast and efficiently. I would say that if you had worked with a very fast and efficient colorist on Baselight - or Lustre, or Resolve, or Film Master - you would be saying exactly the same thing about those systems.

If anything, to most American colorists (and editors, for that matter), Quantel's systems are generally considered the "oddballs." This is primarily because their user interfaces have generally been designed around a pen and tablet as the primary input device, which has long been popular in Europe, but has not enjoyed the same popularity here in the US unless you happen to be a Flame/Inferno/Smoke artist. And just to add to a previous post, all of the multishot trim functions that Jake was mentioning are also available in Scratch (at a considerably lower cost than any of the systems we're now talking about), as is the ability to copy specified parameters. But I think Jake already knows that....

David Block, a Quantel colorist there begs to differ... He has never spent 2 weeks on a film.

All that tells me is that he has never worked on a high end title with a demanding cameraman and/or director. 40 hours is generally considered a "budget" DI. 80 hours is generally considered a "quality" DI. Less than that - certainly less than 40 hours - and you're cutting corners, not allowing yourself revision passes that are usually used for really finessing the image, or both. Simple scene matching, even with some secondary isolations, can be done quickly if the colorist is either working alone or with a very cooperative client. I've done features in as little as 2 days myself. And I would call them "passable." But I wouldn't call them finely crafted, or even close to perfected. On a high end DI, perfection is what's called for. And that takes time, no matter how fast you think you are.

 

[jimhare]

That's the thing, when it takes 90-120 minutes just to watch it back, how many times do you need to factor this into the equation? If you watch it three times during the process you have used up the better part of a day just to see if you did the right thing.

 

[jake blackstone]

Well, I AM a colorist, and I can tell you through experience that none of these systems are "effin sick fast" compared to any of the others. They all have convenience features, they all (well, at least Lustre, Baselight, Resolve, Film Master, and Pablo) have very extensive, very efficient custom control panels with direct access to all common functions (and some not so common ones), and they all do a great job. It is the experience and dexterity of the operator that is in question, not the particular system. I get it, you like Quantel because you worked with someone who was experienced with Quantel systems and can operate it fast and efficiently. I would say that if you had worked with a very fast and efficient colorist on Baselight - or Lustre, or Resolve, or Film Master - you would be saying exactly the same thing about those systems.

If anything, to most American colorists (and editors, for that matter), Quantel's systems are generally considered the "oddballs." This is primarily because their user interfaces have generally been designed around a pen and tablet as the primary input device, which has long been popular in Europe, but has not enjoyed the same popularity here in the US unless you happen to be a Flame/Inferno/Smoke artist. And just to add to a previous post, all of the multishot trim functions that Jake was mentioning are also available in Scratch (at a considerably lower cost than any of the systems we're now talking about), as is the ability to copy specified parameters. But I think Jake already knows that....



All that tells me is that he has never worked on a high end title with a demanding cameraman and/or director. 40 hours is generally considered a "budget" DI. 80 hours is generally considered a "quality" DI. Less than that - certainly less than 40 hours - and you're cutting corners, not allowing yourself revision passes that are usually used for really finessing the image, or both. Simple scene matching, even with some secondary isolations, can be done quickly if the colorist is either working alone or with a very cooperative client. I've done features in as little as 2 days myself. And I would call them "passable." But I wouldn't call them finely crafted, or even close to perfected. On a high end DI, perfection is what's called for. And that takes time, no matter how fast you think you are.

Mike. I didn't mentioned Scratch, as I was comparing the high end systems to Color. But I still find it curious an inability of Baselight to perform the simple task of copying just one parameter. Baselight can copy whole layers. Their suggested workaround is to copy the layer and then delete unneeded parameters. Not very good for such great system...
Tim. The answer to your question is I got the info from my personal experience, while working at Hollywood post houses and from my friends working in the same field. Are you saying, that Company 3 or RIOT does their features in such a short timeframe? Where are you getting this information? You'd been in the business a while. So, even if you're not a colorist yourself, you must know, that most of the time on this kind of low budget $2500 student feature will be spent on conforming and dealing with "issues". If someone has everything conformed and ready to go, then I have no problem with doing it in two days. Pablo, even being wickedly fast, wouldn't make this kind of a project any faster or any less painful.
Oh yeah, last thing. All high end grading systems more or less contain the same "copy the grade from the timeline and apply" functionality as Pablo, but at much lower price point. Baselight recently enabled new video scratchpads, which can be used for a quick store and recall with just one button. You can then even see your current scene with all 10 saved in the scratchpad settings applied up on the screen. Very useful and powerful...