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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Clarifications...

cinepost35 said:
Can anyone else define in technical terms? I'm sure even if the files are around the same size it's not that black and white.
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Of course there are technical measures of comparison. One is "perceptual image quality assessment." However, the problem with this method, and similar methods, is that it will require a reference image, and how do you obtain a "reference image" for the scene your camera is viewing? Well, there are some solutions available for that, but I can't go into their detail, suffice to say they are in the "secret sauce" of companies.

If one can't obtain a reference image, then there are other methods that do not use a reference image. One such method is called "blind image quality assessment." It is based on some other notions of what constitutes a good image as far human vision is concerned, because as a human one does not need a reference image to say the quality of some image is good/bad.
 
cinepost35 said:
As something familiar just for reference purposes.... how dose the 1.5mb file with Redcode 36 compare with a single frame file of data from SR format from an F23?
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Well, for one thing the still file from the RED will be FOUR times the size of the still you pull from the F23. Then after you squish the RED file down to match the size you would start comparing pixels.

Another question might be "how much data do you want to start with for your filmout?"

But i'd still be curious to see that test.


David
 
Thanks for your answers joofa and battistella. What if you wanted to create some kind of improved or enhanced 4k to prep for 4K filmout how would you enhance...any prefered software ?
 
Jannard said:
Bruce... it is way past your bedtime.

Jim
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Hehe, we're both on the same time zone, Jim!

It's kinda got to the point where if I'm up late I check Reduser because I know someone from the team will have posted something...

I'm burning the midnight oil 'cause I'm trying to write a script to film with your beautiful camera - If only Reduser would become boring I'd have a better chance at finishing it...

Anyway, congrats on such an honest and strong stab at "making obsolescence obsolete" in the Moore's Law world of digital cameras. I've never seen a free upgrade like this for any silicon-based product. The fact that the crazy guy in charge of the company is up at 3AM working on a free upgrade is frikkin' awesome. At the same time the care, honesty and up-front attitude about not promising more than can be delivered is super cool and very confidence-inspiring for the remaining doubters (are there any at this point?). It's a bit difficult to criticize a company that's working this hard... everytime I get impatient for Windows Quicktime codecs or something I feel a bit sick now - like if someone is running a marathon for you, you don't complain about their choice of shoes.

Take care Jim and team - and please get some rest! We're counting on you guys to keep knocking the industry on its ass with good humor, energy and enthusiasm for years to come. It's inspiring.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Jannard said:
Is it that late? Oh my gosh... I forgot to go to bed. I knew there was something I was forgetting...

Jim
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Jim your one of those guys that has so much to do you must sleep very little!
Thanks for your commitment to quality!

Dave
 
cinepost35 said:
Thanks for your answers joofa and battistella. What if you wanted to create some kind of improved or enhanced 4k to prep for 4K filmout how would you enhance...any prefered software ?
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A 4K DPX file will give any post facility a lot of data to work with and you can work it out with them.

Many places will develop their own methods to work in their pipeline and their systems. They export the DPX files from your r3d files and color correct and do the filmouts from there.

It is best to talk to the house that will do the filmout and turn over the r3d as they have the knowledge and processing power to do this properly.

David
 
If proof is in the pudding, "Che" movie was a major disappointment from a camera point of view. In comparison, Sony F35 is definitely worth $250K or more in quality and practicality. However, Jim has done enough damage in the market by flooding it with $17K camera bodies. Market share matters. To make things worse, Sony and Panasonic and Canon are not making any attempt to compete with Jim. These Goliaths think the single product David is not worth paying attention to. In the meanwhile Jim has sold 2000 cameras and Sony can't move even 5 and Panasonic is desperately trying to clear their warehouse with incentives. It is VHS vs Betamax story all over again. Market share beats quality everytime. Look at Apple OS vs Microsoft OS.
 
Well, I wouldn't use Che specifically as a measuring stick for Red footage. SS had some pretty specific things in mind for the style of photography, not to mention Beta cameras without so much as a histogram. Personally, when treated and exposed correctly B15 footage can be quite stunning on a big screen. B16 promises to be even better.
 
I'd remember that Sodderberg was brave enough to shoot on very early prototypes, and certainly the vast majority of footage I've seen from them was superb. The cameras he shot with are not the cameras we shoot with today, and we are always looking for improvements.

As for practicality - personally speaking, I don't think anything that involves tape or tether is practical any more.

Yes, number of cameras matter. I'd say that just looking at them, RED is probably the most successful digital cinema camera so far.
 
Chuck

Have you seen Che?

Have you used Red in a professional production yet?
 
chuckt said:
If proof is in the pudding, "Che" movie was a major disappointment from a camera point of view. In comparison, Sony F35 is definitely worth $250K or more in quality and practicality. However, Jim has done enough damage in the market by flooding it with $17K camera bodies. Market share matters. To make things worse, Sony and Panasonic and Canon are not making any attempt to compete with Jim. These Goliaths think the single product David is not worth paying attention to. In the meanwhile Jim has sold 2000 cameras and Sony can't move even 5 and Panasonic is desperately trying to clear their warehouse with incentives. It is VHS vs Betamax story all over again. Market share beats quality everytime. Look at Apple OS vs Microsoft OS.
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chuck... you are starting to bug me. You reference to Ché as the benchmark to the "inferior quality" of RED seems to ignore that those were very early pre-production prototypes, that there is a ton of INCREDIBLY beautiful footage in the movies, that we have released countless upgrades (at no change) with a big one on the doorstep.

Why not judge RED's quality on current news? While I completely disagree with you on the look of Ché, I can understand that there are a few shots with blown highlights. To focus on those as exposing a huge limitation of the camera... as opposed to missed exposure, grading or decision... and ignore all the footage that points in the other direction, seems just... silly.

Had you made the "image quality" comparison with film, that would be one thing. But an F35? Have you even seen one? Seen a filmout on a big screen? Done side by side comparisons with RED? GMAFB.

... added note. I reviewed some past posts and I see that chuck is a "button-pusher". Now it makes sense.

Jim
 
chuckt said:
If proof is in the pudding, "Che" movie was a major disappointment from a camera point of view.
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1.

chuckt said:
In comparison, Sony F35 is definitely worth $250K or more in quality and practicality.
Click to expand...

2.

chuckt said:
It is VHS vs Betamax story all over again. Market share beats quality everytime.
Click to expand...

3.

chuckt said:
Look at Apple OS vs Microsoft OS.
Click to expand...

4.



link 1

deductive & inductive...

link 2

Barbara, Celarent, Darii, Ferio, Cesare, Camestres, Festino, Baroco...

link 3

...


It's never too late.
 
As someone who has seen Che in Cannes I wish to add that it actually looked very good. Yes, there were some blown highlights issues but we know these can be controlled. And Red have taken steps with build 16 to make sure they don't happen as easily.

Saying that "Che" movie was a major disappointment from a camera point of view is simply not correct and misguiding, and probably comes from someone who hasn't seen it.
 
Jim,

He certainly is a "button pusher". I did the exact same thing, I went back and read through some of his posts a while back. Non of his posts add up or make any sense. My guess is that he is from cinematography dot com and he is attempting to piss everyone off here. Not much goes on in the RED forum at cinematography dot com anymore since you basically proved them wrong. Nothing but a bunch of tails tucked between their legs over there!! he he..

Best thing for us all to do is ignore him.

If he could back up his findings as to why the camera shoots such bad footage, I would certainly enjoy hearing it. However, when you go back and you look at the incredible footage people are posting here, and I go back myself and look at some of the out-takes from the indie film I am working on- nothing adds up to what he is saying.

Chuckt- go back to cinematography dot com. You have good friends and company there. If you are going to post something negative towards this camera, fine!!! But please back up your finding in detail. We are willing to listen!
 
chuckt said:
If proof is in the pudding, "Che" movie was a major disappointment from a camera point of view. In comparison, Sony F35 is definitely worth $250K or more in quality and practicality. However, Jim has done enough damage in the market by flooding it with $17K camera bodies. Market share matters. To make things worse, Sony and Panasonic and Canon are not making any attempt to compete with Jim. These Goliaths think the single product David is not worth paying attention to. In the meanwhile Jim has sold 2000 cameras and Sony can't move even 5 and Panasonic is desperately trying to clear their warehouse with incentives. It is VHS vs Betamax story all over again. Market share beats quality everytime. Look at Apple OS vs Microsoft OS.
Click to expand...

Chuck, I consider myself to be very objective when it comes to digital images, having come from a very serious film background. First in movies and then into still photography and back to movies. Moving into digital capture almost ten years ago in stills and then shooting commercials with the old Canon XL1 up to P200 (with a few 35mm filmed spots on Arri in between). I can tell you I think the RED is an excellent camera for high end use or I wouldn't be buying one! As much as owning a reasonably priced 35mm camera body is terrific for me, I wouldn't even be considering it - if I felt it would compromise my work.

Bottom line: the Red camera, even in it's prototypes which Steven used for Che are excellent digital cameras. If the highlights were blown, it's no fault of the camera. A DP has to shoot within the limitation of whatever medium he is capturing with! Look at all the decent work done on the XL1's and PD150s!!

You are just waaaaay off base on this post! And I think completely wrong. Maybe you just don't know of what you speak.....

I admire Jim for even responding objectively to your post.

IMO but jeeeeez...
 
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