"Cinematic" live on internet...

[vincent kardasik]

Hi everyone,
I'm right now working on something out of my confort zone but it's a really interesting project.
I will have to release on Facebook a live performance during a "secret" event with thousands of people invited.
It will be a one hour show and when it comes to broadcasting, all the team is already on point with everything needed.
Where it becomes interesting is the look the producers are looking for, they call it "cinematic"...
They're looking for smooth, noiseless footage with shallow depth of field on close ups and nice bokeh...
The place is big with not that much light so we need really sensitive camera.
Couple of days after the live we will have to release a highlight package of the event so I'm trying to find cameras which could perform during the live and also record on cards we will collect at the end of the show.
Have you guys ever worked on that kind of set-up?
What kind of cameras would you look for when it comes to live and low light?

 

[Dan Kanes]

I would personally recommend the use of C300 markII cameras.

Why?

Good autofocus may save you at times.
Onboard codecs are good.
It’s small, light, and has good color.
Good at clean “low light”

Are you trying to stream 1080p or 4K?

Ps: personal opinion - what they are asking for is not “cinematic” they are asking for a contemporary /“modern” look. This could be considered “Vimeomatic” by some. Lighting is just as important as camera selection, but it sounds like that might be outside of your control area. Watch out for flickers from stage lights - recommend testing cameras under a lighting rehearsal.

Also recommend the use of Arri skypanels as ambience / fill / color base.

The streaming / encoding backend is just as important as the capture side if you’re trying to make it look good live.

Normally I would say Epic-W’s with helium, but his might be a time to try something different.

Last free idea: recommend the use of a live color correction system in between your cameras and the streaming platform. Teradek Colr + pomfort livegrade - cheapest way to do this that I can think of.

 

[Phil Holland]

If you can get any recon on the venue lighting it can directly talk to the engineer/tech you'll have a bit more to go on.

I did something similar and tricky for the Grammys a bit ago and had lenses at T4, 2.9, and 2 for various "pockets" of lights and there was shockiny more light than I expected going into it. A few moment we cracked open to T1.4 and you bet you but I was pulling on those shots.

 

[David Peterson]

If it is only one camera, and on a budget, go for the JVC LS300. Not only is it a S35 4K camera, it also has some powerful streaming capabilities built in.

If going multi camera I'd consider several BMD Micro cameras with a Blackmagic Design ATEM switcher.

 

[Daniel Stilling]

Well, If it's really dark, I would consider the Varicam, with it's native 5000 ISO...

 

[Jim Skinner]

Hi Vincent, I think I can give you some good advice. I managed over 2000 live streams for Twitter last year, and it looks like we'll do even more next year. I own Scarlet W and C300s, and I rent Sony and other cameras as needed.

The advantage of shooting with a Red is that you have a lot of control over the SDI out. You can control frame rate, etc. With the C300 you don't have this kind of control. Since you said the other parts of the pipeline are in place, I take it you will be feeding someone else's encoder. You will want as much flexibility as possible in the signal you'll send to the team's encoder. So having this control over the SDI signal is going to be important for you.

Next let's talk about light levels. You'll want the fastest lenses possible, since the pre-Helium cameras need a lot of light (for the delivery medium, which is mobile). You will also want to check if the encoder that is being used darkens your image. Some of the Black Magic encoders are atrocious when it comes to this (they will darken your image by 1-2 stops). Or put it another way, I have never had anyone complain that an encoded stream was too bright.

And it goes without saying you'll want to genlock all the cameras. Yet another reason to go with Red (easy to genlock).

Good luck!

 

[vincent kardasik]

I would personally recommend the use of C300 markII cameras.

Why?

Good autofocus may save you at times.
Onboard codecs are good.
It’s small, light, and has good color.
Good at clean “low light”

Are you trying to stream 1080p or 4K?

Ps: personal opinion - what they are asking for is not “cinematic” they are asking for a contemporary /“modern” look. This could be considered “Vimeomatic” by some. Lighting is just as important as camera selection, but it sounds like that might be outside of your control area. Watch out for flickers from stage lights - recommend testing cameras under a lighting rehearsal.

Also recommend the use of Arri skypanels as ambience / fill / color base.

The streaming / encoding backend is just as important as the capture side if you’re trying to make it look good live.

Normally I would say Epic-W’s with helium, but his might be a time to try something different.

Last free idea: recommend the use of a live color correction system in between your cameras and the streaming platform. Teradek Colr + pomfort livegrade - cheapest way to do this that I can think of.

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your input.

We're streaming 1080p.

C300 Mark I and Mark II have been my work horses for years when it comes to shoot low light and that was the first camera I had in my mind for that job.

My only concern is the ergonomics, we will need to rig those with a good shoulder set-up for the run and gun camera.

We have two Helium cameras, Epic-W and Weapon CF and I think I will keep those ones for the highlights package only and not connect them to the live broadcast.

You're totally right ont he description of the client needs, he's looking for that contemporary modern look, more pleasing look, different from the traditional broadcast look on TV.

We won't be able to modify the existing lightning, so yes that part is definitely out of my control area.

Streaming and encoding are covered, I'm right now figuring out the live color correction system.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

 

[vincent kardasik]

If you can get any recon on the venue lighting it can directly talk to the engineer/tech you'll have a bit more to go on.

I did something similar and tricky for the Grammys a bit ago and had lenses at T4, 2.9, and 2 for various "pockets" of lights and there was shockiny more light than I expected going into it. A few moment we cracked open to T1.4 and you bet you but I was pulling on those shots.

Thanks for your reply Phil.

This will be really tricky, I'm putting lot of pressure on the clients but as I just wrote to Dan, I'm afraid lightning will be totally out of my control area.

It might be the opposite in our case, way less light than we expect

I keep in mind that we will have to use fast lenses and pulling focus may sometimes be challenging.

 

[vincent kardasik]

If it is only one camera, and on a budget, go for the JVC LS300. Not only is it a S35 4K camera, it also has some powerful streaming capabilities built in.

If going multi camera I'd consider several BMD Micro cameras with a Blackmagic Design ATEM switcher.

Thanks for your input David, I will definitely have a look at the JVC LS300 as I never worked with it.

I had a live event recently with the BMD URSA Mini and I was really disappointed with its low light performance, I will also have a look at the Micro Cameras, combined with the right lenses, it may perform better.

BMD ATEM Switcher is on ou list.

thanks again for your advices.

 

[vincent kardasik]

Well, If it's really dark, I would consider the Varicam, with it's native 5000 ISO...

Thanks Daniel, that one was on our list but I couldn't find any feedback regarding the control over SDI out and we won't have the time to risk it.

But when it comets low light, that one is really a performer.

 

[vincent kardasik]

Hi Vincent, I think I can give you some good advice. I managed over 2000 live streams for Twitter last year, and it looks like we'll do even more next year. I own Scarlet W and C300s, and I rent Sony and other cameras as needed.

The advantage of shooting with a Red is that you have a lot of control over the SDI out. You can control frame rate, etc. With the C300 you don't have this kind of control. Since you said the other parts of the pipeline are in place, I take it you will be feeding someone else's encoder. You will want as much flexibility as possible in the signal you'll send to the team's encoder. So having this control over the SDI signal is going to be important for you.

Next let's talk about light levels. You'll want the fastest lenses possible, since the pre-Helium cameras need a lot of light (for the delivery medium, which is mobile). You will also want to check if the encoder that is being used darkens your image. Some of the Black Magic encoders are atrocious when it comes to this (they will darken your image by 1-2 stops). Or put it another way, I have never had anyone complain that an encoded stream was too bright.

And it goes without saying you'll want to genlock all the cameras. Yet another reason to go with Red (easy to genlock).

Good luck!

Jim, thanks a lot for your reply and those advices.

As I wrote to Dan earlier we thought about using the Helium cameras only for highlights purpose but after reading your post we might re-consider it.

Got you about the encoder and we will definitely test before streaming.

many thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[vincent kardasik]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply to that thread.

Your inputs are greatly appreciated and definitely helps a lot.

Reduser is a great community when it comes to everything cinematography related and I'm stoked to be able to chat with all of you.

When this job will be completed I will upload a private link of this event here to show you Guys the result and see where we could have improved the live feed.

 

[Dan Kanes]

Couple more questions popped into my head:

(Also sorry some of my questions were kinda dumb now that I reread the original subject line)

How many total cameras will they allow you?

What OLpF do you have in your helium cams?

If you can toss standard or low light in the helium’s, those are probably better than fine.

C300-2’s would still make my recommended supplementary or A-cam list for you. That c300-2 and c200 af is ridiculously useful under pressure.

 

[David Peterson]

And it goes without saying you'll want to genlock all the cameras. Yet another reason to go with Red (easy to genlock).

And on this topic, get yourself several Ultrasync ONE! The best, smallest, and cheapest way to achieve genlock.

 

[vincent kardasik]

Couple more questions popped into my head:

(Also sorry some of my questions were kinda dumb now that I reread the original subject line)

How many total cameras will they allow you?

What OLpF do you have in your helium cams?

If you can toss standard or low light in the helium’s, those are probably better than fine.

C300-2’s would still make my recommended supplementary or A-cam list for you. That c300-2 and c-300 af is ridiculously useful under pressure.

Hi Dan,

Ideally we'll run 3 cameras.

We'll use LLO OLPF with the Helium.

Same as you C300 would be my main call, for lowlight and AF.

We're putting lines on the budget, we'll see how client reacts.