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Cinema Glass on 7D/5D vs. Still Glass on Epic

Tim Whitcomb said:
and people call redusers fanboys? that shootout was a joke. sorry bud. they ALL are biased. have to disagree. I work with that shitty footage EVERY day on commercials and clients complain EVERY damn day with how little flexibility there is. (been awesome for our RED canvassing though)
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In what way exactly was it a joke? I'm not saying it's the "end-all" camera test, but how can you just say it was a joke with no explanation? So far, it was the only test that I've seen that compared the DSLRs to film... on the same chart... at the same time. Did they use doctored charts or something? If you have some inside information that can reveal to us exactly how it was misleading, then that would be extremely helpful. But if the only reason you have to believe it was a joke is because you're threatened by the results, or that you personally don't agree with them, then you should refrain from accusations like that.

If you ask me... the real biased tests are the ones that nobody ever sees being performed and where someone just throws up an arbitrary chart and says... "See here! It has 13 stops!... because that's where we made a mark... trust us."
 
Bryce O said:
I never said it was true... I just said "some people have measured it at 11 stops" that's all.

BTW... ISO 100 has less DR than ISO 160. Only multiples of 160 and so-forth are "true-ISO's" and have the most range. The "in-between" values, have some sort of noise augmentation which have been shown to reduce DR and increase noise, even in stills mode. I think it's dumb personally, but whatever...
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My testing disagrees.

ISO 100 is the base on the 7D.

There are settings that alter this on the camera... but if you turn stuff off and just test the camera... ISO 100 is the thing.

You can do all the trickery the camera does to make ISO 200 or 160 better at much higher quality in post than in camera.

Keeping in mind that brittle codec... you really want to coddle the in camera performance.

I happen to love shooting with the 7D, but the more I talk to people about it, the more I'm convinced that a lot of people should run, not walk, and get the Sony F3. The 7D is a great enabler, but its also a VERY hard camera to shoot with, mostly because its not really a video camera.

I'm done talking about the 7D.

I vote for cinema glass on the Epic. I think that DSLR glass isn't as nice. Oh, I'll almost certainly use it... because $$$.

Although... I can not wait for autofocus servo driven cinema glass on Epic. That might be very nice.
 
We've tested the 7D very carefully against a non-MX R1, and the sensors are close indeed. The R1 has about half a stop more DR. This was shooting RAW (i.e. stills, of course).

Point is: for video you have to adjust the custom 'Picture Style' in the camera carefully for every scene to get the most out of it, just like in typical video cameras. The default "Standard" style is awful, tries to look like color reversal and limits you to some 6 or 7 stops.
 
It doesn't matter if you expose the 7D at 100 or 160 ISO, it will still have aliasing and moire...

Now, back on topic, I'd like to hear more about these AF zoom lenses; anyone have further details they'd care to share?
 
Liam Hall said:
It doesn't matter if you expose the 7D at 100 or 160 ISO, it will still have aliasing and moire...
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Again... this is FUD talk that is misleading to everyone. Aliasing and moire simply are not prevalent in every shot. In fact, more often than not, it doesn't show up if the in-camera sharpening is tuned right...

I'm not trying to be the defender of DSLR's, but I just hate these blind comments. It just makes the forum look dumb.
 
Bryce O said:
Again... this is FUD talk that is misleading to everyone. Aliasing and moire simply are not prevalent in every shot. In fact, more often than not, it doesn't show up if the in-camera sharpening is tuned right...

I'm not trying to be the defender of DSLR's, but I just hate these blind comments. It just makes the forum look dumb.
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Bryce, this thread is about RED's new lenses, I'm quite sure Mark didn't start it to discus the relative merits of DSLR cameras.

FYI I have shot with 5Ds and 7Ds all over the globe. No one knows more about how to wring an extra pixel or two out of this hybrid technology than I do.
 
Bryce O said:
I know everyone is tired of these DSLR comparisons... but why start a thread like this? Isn't that just asking for it? Especially with comments like "less dynamic range than 8mm"... which is just blatantly false.
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Bryce - I wasn't trying to start a thread about DSLR comparisons - and I have seen some cool stuff shot on DSLRs in spite of limitations. Maybe my "ass monkey" comment was a bit over the top - but I assure you - I can actually get more dynamic range on Super8mm - that is fact.

I was really just pointing out that I find it very ironic that lots of folks are putting cinema glass on DSLRs and meanwhile, as EPIC rolls out - you will see more and more people with AF still glass on EPIC.

We have several clients who have already asked us to carry a "complete, full line" of Canon AF glass for rental with EPIC.

I find that rather telling. Obviously, we all know the mechanical limitations of AF still lenses and cinema lenses are not going away - but you can see a desire for something .... "in-between" ... right?
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
We have several clients who have already asked us to carry a "complete, full line" of Canon AF glass for rental with EPIC.
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If only the Red lenses were coming sooner rather than later we wouldn't need to buy a line of Canon AF lenses. No news is bad news when last we heard the first lens was supposed to be ready by the end of the year.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
Isn't it rather ironic that folks are running around with PL mount 7Ds and 5Ds - putting $20K - $60K cinema lenses on a DSLR and shooting ass monkey H264 with less dynamic range than Super8mm film ...

Soon comes EPIC ... and I STRONGLY suspect LOTS of folks will be putting $600 - $1500 auto-focus still glass on a $28,000 5K RAW motion camera.

Ironic, right? Things change.

I have a "sneaky suspicion" that RED's new auto-focus zooms are going to really surprise some folks with an affordable solution that bridges both worlds.
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Well it certainly is ironic, however there are relatively few people putting PL mounts on their DSLR's but EVERYBODY is going to shoot their new Reds with still glass at some point.

It will be interesting to see if Cooke and Zeiss respond in any way.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
- but I assure you - I can actually get more dynamic range on Super8mm - that is fact.
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I'd like to see this proved.... :smiley:

"The Dead Next Door" Is the best shot super8mm film I've seen, but I don't think it matches even close to HDSLR.
 
Bryce O said:
... but I'm pretty sure the 7D has been measured at 2-stops over a non-MX Red One. Let's not bash gear just for the sake of it. I was just shooting out at Joshua Tree the other day on the 7D and I was able to expose for the talents hair, black clothes, sky, and the entire desert scape... hell, it was the middle of the day and even the shadows under rocks were exposed for. ...
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It sounds like lovely footage, seriously. And I'd love to see some it, or at least a few frame grabs. That said, there is no way any camera anyone can buy is able to perfectly expose an entire noontime desert scene from shadows to highlights w/o underexposing the shadows or blowing out some of the highlights. I have to think that, from brightest to darkest, a desert in mid-day with shadows has over 20 stops of DR.

As for the DR of DSLR's, look at DP Review where they test DR for the still imaging of these cameras. Even the very best top-out at around 9 stops. I have a hard time believing the motion images have more DR than the stills.
 
As requested... here are a few grabs. there is a little loss in quality, but not too bad. What is the best method for uploading stills BTW? I just used photo-bucket for these.

Here's what my flat "RAW" images looked like... I guess I wouldn't say it's perfect exposure... but you can see what I mean about getting the skin exposed without clipping, as well as the shadow's of the rocks in the pile.

DanStill-1.png


DanStill2.png


Sun was down a little here...
Still_1.png


and here's a quick "grade" of it...

Screenshot2010-11-24at24108PM.png


Overall I'm pleased with the footage... but I can't wait to see how HDRx would look in this situation.

BTW, I thought that Canon L glass was supposed to work well with Epic? Isn't that what was in that demo clip?
 
Yes, I think you did a very nice job of exposing. You can tell that some the shadows under the rocks are "under exposed" but they are supposed to be. And the day is not a blistering sunny day. I was thinking of the walk across the desert scene in "Galipoli" when you described the shoot. I esp. like the grade on the girl. Very nicely done, IMHO.
 
Bryce O said:
Zacuto, Philip Bloom, and Halbut have all seen around 11 stops. As I remember, the great camera shootout (which measured the 7D at 11 stops) won an emmy... so far, no other source has proven it self as more legit than that. And if I remember correctly... the original Red One was around 9-stops... which is why some productions were reluctant to adopt it, despite the resolution.
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Zacuto and Phillip Bloom who are trying to sell you dreams via overpriced DSLR rigs? Ah yes, a truly unquestionable authority.

Real pro photo sites rate the 5D and 7D as 8-9 stops in RAW - which is very, very different.

I'd say 6-7 stops. Lattitude is subjective - if you have ass-monkey low standards, then hell, its 20 stops, because maybe you can kind of make something out in the shadows underneath all that macroblocking.

teh original M sensor had MUCH more lattitude.
 
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