Cinema Glass on 7D/5D vs. Still Glass on Epic

[Mark L. Pederson]

Isn't it rather ironic that folks are running around with PL mount 7Ds and 5Ds - putting $20K - $60K cinema lenses on a DSLR and shooting ass monkey H264 with less dynamic range than Super8mm film ...

Soon comes EPIC ... and I STRONGLY suspect LOTS of folks will be putting $600 - $1500 auto-focus still glass on a $28,000 5K RAW motion camera.

Ironic, right? Things change.

I have a "sneaky suspicion" that RED's new auto-focus zooms are going to really surprise some folks with an affordable solution that bridges both worlds.

 

[Steve Das]

..."sneaky suspicion" that RED's new auto-focus zooms are going to really surprise some folks with an affordable solution that bridges both worlds.

Hehehe...have sneaky suspicion I won't invest in any glass till those new
Red zooms have made their appearance...thanks.

 

[Robert Frank]

Great post Mark. :beer:

 

[George Tsai]

Hehehe...have sneaky suspicion I won't invest in any glass till those new
Red zooms have made their appearance...thanks.

that might be a long while i suspect... i'm still waiting on my RPZ 17-50 haha

 

[IAN SUN]

Do tell Mark, have you been playing around with samples?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

and shooting ass monkey H264

My ass monkey resents that comment.

I have a "sneaky suspicion" that RED's new auto-focus zooms are going to really surprise some folks with an affordable solution that bridges both worlds.

I'm counting on this. Should match up beautifully with those 35mm FF Monstro sensors.

What I'm really curious about is just what RED is cooking up for the Epic 645 and 617 formats. There are no medium format lenses out there up to the task of shooting motion and I'd go broke trying to rent IMAX glass every time I wanted to shoot something -- assuming it would even be available when and where I would like it. There's Arri 62mm Maxi-PL glass for 65mm, but I doubt they will cover. Projection aperture on the 765 is "only" like 50x20mm or something...

 

[Bryce O]

Isn't it rather ironic that folks are running around with PL mount 7Ds and 5Ds - putting $20K - $60K cinema lenses on a DSLR and shooting ass monkey H264 with less dynamic range than Super8mm film ...

I'm as excited for Epic as much as anyone... but I'm pretty sure the 7D has been measured at 2-stops over a non-MX Red One. Let's not bash gear just for the sake of it. I was just shooting out at Joshua Tree the other day on the 7D and I was able to expose for the talents hair, black clothes, sky, and the entire desert scape... hell, it was the middle of the day and even the shadows under rocks were exposed for. It's a great sensor... despite what codec it's going to. I'd even say it was getting more exposure range than the 5D we were also shooting with. Plus, it was all with a Sigma lens... since we didn't have enough ND filters for the L-glass. I'd love to see what cinema glass would look like on it.

But of course... Epic and HDRx™ are in a whole new ballpark...

I know everyone is tired of these DSLR comparisons... but why start a thread like this? Isn't that just asking for it? Especially with comments like "less dynamic range than 8mm"... which is just blatantly false.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

I'm as excited for Epic as much as anyone... but I'm pretty sure the 7D has been measured at 2-stops over a non-MX Red One. Let's not bash gear just for the sake of it.

But of course... Epic and HDRx™™ are in a whole new ballpark...

where did you get that info? dslruser? you must be talking biased charts versus real world - no effin way its 8 or 9 stops... real world its BARELY 5 stops. we work with a ton of that ass monkey footage ALL the time. almost impossible to grade for TV. Fine for the web, where most indie stuff ends up anyway... but not for much else... those cameras will be for sale enmasse...

the good news? All those DSLR accessories will be gold for Epic and Scarlett so its not a total waste... we like to call them PRACTICE cameras... like Super-8 was when I was a kid.

Great post Mark, my favorite was an monster Optimo Zoom Lens on a PL DSLR, wish to hell I had a camera for that rig - highlarious

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Yeah we definitely suspect that the RED Electronic AF ZOOMS will be very Bad A%$# judging form the Fixed Electronic AF ZOOM of the Scarlett.. look forward to them especially so for Still shooting

 

[scott william]

Hehehe...have sneaky suspicion I won't invest in any glass till those new
Red zooms have made their appearance...thanks.

At some point you must buy into the market right?

 

[Bryce O]

where did you get that info? dslruser? you must be talking biased charts versus real world - no effin way its 8 or 9 stops... real world its BARELY 5 stops. we work with a ton of that ass monkey footage ALL the time. almost impossible to grade for TV. Fine for the web, where most indie stuff ends up anyway... but not for much else... those cameras will be for sale enmasse...

Zacuto, Philip Bloom, and Halbut have all seen around 11 stops. As I remember, the great camera shootout (which measured the 7D at 11 stops) won an emmy... so far, no other source has proven it self as more legit than that. And if I remember correctly... the original Red One was around 9-stops... which is why some productions were reluctant to adopt it, despite the resolution.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

From jump the RED program has challenged paradigms, market segments and conventional wisdom. If RED can create zoom lenses that allow focus, iris and zoom to be manipulated precisely and ergonomically in a relatively compact form factor I will be one happy camper.

Based on the prototypes, Epic looks to have everything from the lens mount back one could ask for. For many uses putting on a proper prime with Preston, Arri or C-motion FIZ control will provide everything one might desire from the lens mount forward. That said, for more mobile applications like Gibby favors and for a variety of situations where 10 to 40 pounds of gack (lens, rods, motors, etc not to mention $$,$$$) in front of the lens mount (plus a capable 1st AC) is impractical, a fully electronic lens with FF35 coverage will flat rock.

My point? Even if Epic is everything we expect it to be and more, to reach the holy grail it will take a lens just as advanced. I'd settle for a lens that had the size and operational characteristics of a broadcast B4 zoom lens only with PL mount and FF35 coverage...

Cheers - #19

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Zacuto, Philip Bloom, and Halbut have all seen around 11 stops. As I remember, the great camera shootout (which measured the 7D at 11 stops) won an emmy... so far, no other source has proven it self as more legit than that. And if I remember correctly... the original Red One was around 9-stops... which is why some productions were reluctant to adopt it, despite the resolution.

and people call redusers fanboys? that shootout was a joke. sorry bud. they ALL are biased. have to disagree. I work with that shitty footage EVERY day on commercials and clients complain EVERY damn day with how little flexibility there is. (been awesome for our RED canvassing though)

As a STILL camera its terrific, but this is 2010... M-X blows it away... and its just the beginning. Hence the mass migration... and I'll bet you 5 grand that the 5D and 7D are the #1 camera for sale in 2011.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Soon comes EPIC ... and I STRONGLY suspect LOTS of folks will be putting $600 - $1500 auto-focus still glass on a $28,000 5K RAW motion camera.

We (myself and a number of my customers) have been putting L series and certain high quality ef-s lenses (as well as Zeiss SLR lenses) on RED1 since the beginning, usually with stunning results - limited only by the subject and the talent of the photographer - not the glass. And I suspect it will work the same for Epic 5K and even Epic FF 6K.

Maybe not that great for narrative shooting, but the nature/documentary stuff seen in most of the current super high res motion pictures - primarily Imax - lends itself fairly well to these kind of lenses.

I suspect the Pentax, Mamiya, Hasselblad medium format lenses will do pretty well for those subjects when we get to Epic 645 (At least that's why I picked up a bunch of Pentax lenses over the past year). I'm sure there will eventually be better lenses, but I think even these, combined with 9K monstro resolution/DR will provide a jump over 5K footage.

 

[Mark Andersen]

I've never seen anything close to 11 stops on DSLR video. Maybe as a still camera doing time-lapse, but not in video mode.

About lenses, I'd like to see how hasselblad lenses work with the upcoming 645.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

and people call redusers fanboys? that shootout was a joke. sorry bud. they ALL are biased. have to disagree. I work with that shitty footage EVERY day on commercials and clients complain EVERY damn day with how little flexibility there is. (been awesome for our RED canvassing though)

As a STILL camera its terrific, but this is 2010... M-X blows it away... and its just the beginning. Hence the mass migration... and I'll bet you 5 grand that the 5D and 7D are the #1 camera for sale in 2011.

Why?

I plan on keeping mine for its INTENDED purpose... shooting stills.

I am just not taking a $30000 camera body out with me to take some snapshots at the Ren faire.

And don't talk to me about Scarlet... I'm not taking a $10000 camera body out for that purpose either.

I might take those cameras out to shoot stills, on paid gigs with full insurance.

Maybe if my name was Jim Jannard and I could afford to replace my lost/stolen/broken EPIC out of pocket change.

Hell... I'm nervous enough about my cheap 7D.

 

[Darren Orange]

I think that this thread is out of place on REDuser. With all respect to all who have posted and the starter of this thread.

If we want to talk about future RED lens lets have a thread that has a focus on that. No pun intended.

 

[Bryce O]

and people call redusers fanboys? that shootout was a joke. sorry bud. they ALL are biased. have to disagree. I work with that shitty footage EVERY day on commercials and clients complain EVERY damn day with how little flexibility there is. (been awesome for our RED canvassing though)

As a STILL camera its terrific, but this is 2010... M-X blows it away... and its just the beginning. Hence the mass migration... and I'll bet you 5 grand that the 5D and 7D are the #1 camera for sale in 2011.

I'm no-one's fanboy... But I don't see how that test was more of a joke than anyone else's...

And I never said it was better than the MX... obviously it blows it away. But the 7D's native dynamic range is no joke... you just need to make sure you're getting the flattest image possible before compression... otherwise... yea, it's going to look like crap. Whereas, with the Red, there's room for error.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Zacuto, Philip Bloom, and Halbut have all seen around 11 stops. As I remember, the great camera shootout (which measured the 7D at 11 stops) won an emmy... so far, no other source has proven it self as more legit than that. And if I remember correctly... the original Red One was around 9-stops... which is why some productions were reluctant to adopt it, despite the resolution.

Whoah... wait... what?

I've shot a feature on a 7D... by any measure I am a HD DSLR proponent. (not a fanboy, just a proponent)

The 7D does NOT have 11 stops of latitude in video.

If you expose it perfectly at ISO 100 the video can deliver 9 stops. Realistically you'll have about 7-8 stops in normal use.

If you expose into the shadows you can absolutely murder this sensor. A lot of "film DP's" do that on this camera and its just stupid.

You already have a crappy brittle codec- so don't do that!

 

[Bryce O]

Whoah... wait... what?

I've shot a feature on a 7D... by any measure I am a HD DSLR proponent. (not a fanboy, just a proponent)

The 7D does NOT have 11 stops of latitude in video.

If you expose it perfectly at ISO 100 the video can deliver 9 stops. Realistically you'll have about 7-8 stops in normal use.

If you expose into the shadows you can absolutely murder this sensor. A lot of "film DP's" do that on this camera and its just stupid.

You already have a crappy brittle codec- so don't do that!

I never said it was true... I just said "some people have measured it at 11 stops" that's all.

BTW... ISO 100 has less DR than ISO 160. Only multiples of 160 and so-forth are "true-ISO's" and have the most range. The "in-between" values, have some sort of noise augmentation which have been shown to reduce DR and increase noise, even in stills mode. I think it's dumb personally, but whatever...