Cineform?

[David Taylor]

Hi david i have downloaded the new Cineform Mac Codec Trial,

now i can see the new set metadata tab ....but actually it didnt work ....

First i have tried using a cineform RAW clip downloaded from the Silicon imaging website : "the spider experiment" ,

using that clip the only control that was working in the set metadata panel was enable/disble metadata ...all the others control like "apply a different look" or change white balance or change color matrix doesn't work...

maybe that clip is not a Cineform RAW clip? In quicktime in the movie inspector tab it say "CineForm HD/2K/4K, 1024 x 540 "

Gabriele, I'm glad you asked this question. The CineForm file format syntax to support Active Metadata has evolved considerably since "Spider Experiment" was shot. The material you tested was shot about a year ago, and doesn't have the updated mechanisms within the file to support modification of Active Metadata on the Mac. The fact that the clip shows up as 1024x576 also indicates its age. It's actually a 2048x1152 clip, but older clips reported their size to the Mac file system as 1024x576. To use the SetActiveMetadata features you need "modern" CineForm RAW clips from the latest SI recording software or from software encodes into CineForm RAW.

Also, how i can encode the RED RAW .R3D into cineform RAW ?
I have tried using the last REDCine but the images comes out corrupted (no image and all gray with black stripes actually...),
Maybe there is specific setting to use , like color space etc...?

You cannot yet transcode from R3D into CineForm RAW. We are hoping this mechanism is made available to us through the Red SDK we are waiting for. If so, the SetActiveMetadata features will come to life through CineForm RAW. Separately, we will be adding the SetActiveMetadata features to CineForm 444. So in some cases you may need to render out of RAW, but you'd prefer to not bake in your color information. Once we turn on Active Metadata support for CF444 you'll be able to move Active Metadata for RAW files into CF444 without flattening color information.

Finally, but it's a different subject, many RedCine users are reporting success rendering out to CineForm 444 files other than at 16:9 which apparently has some memory problems.

 

[Gabriele Turchi]

Thanks David

Any chances to get a modern Cineform 4K RAW Clip?

What about the one that you were showing at Nab from RED Camera (Santa Clause i think...)

So the option to transcode into Cineform from RED cine means transcode into Cineform 444? (and not active metadata yet...right?)

Thanks


G

 

[Troy Smith]

Hi David,

I'm wondering once editing with cineform raw is supported, editing
in ppro will crossfades work? or will it be strictly cuts only until one bakes
the footage?

As far as I know in fcp, editing the r3d files one cannot do crossfades, only
cuts only, so I was wondering the above.



Thanks
Stricko

 

[David Taylor]

Thanks David

Any chances to get a modern Cineform 4K RAW Clip?

Yes - we will make a 4K (4000-wide actually) clip available in the near future. We will make 4000 available because FCP will support up to 4000-wide horizontal rasters. We are adding a few behind-the-scenes features to the SetActiveMetadata utility, and we're fixing a couple bugs in the Active Metadata engine, so want to wait to provide the clip until the next release. I'm guessing in the next 1-2 weeks-ish.

So the option to transcode into Cineform from RED cine means transcode into Cineform 444? (and not active metadata yet...right?)

Correct....

 

[David Taylor]

Hi David,

I'm wondering once editing with cineform raw is supported, editing
in ppro will crossfades work? or will it be strictly cuts only until one bakes
the footage?

As far as I know in fcp, editing the r3d files one cannot do crossfades, only
cuts only, so I was wondering the above.

The issue with supporting RT dissolves in FCP has nothing to do with whether metadata is flattened (or not), nor whether the data is Raw (or not). Instead it is an architectural decision made by FCP as to whether you are considered an "internal" codec (like ProRes) or not. All third party codecs in FCP must render transitions, effects, titles, etc. In this situation FCP does a fine job as a RT cuts editor for third-party codecs, but its architecture unnecessarily limits other features for third-party codecs.

 

[Gabriele Turchi]

Thanks David!

I'll wait

PS: Did you ever spoke with RED guys about the possibility to record directly into Cineform instead of REDRAW?
Or both maybe?
Or that it could be not possible for some reason?



G

 

[Joel Kaye]

FCP does a fine job as a RT cuts editor for third-party codecs, but its architecture unnecessarily limits other features for third-party codecs.

Any progress on seeing Cineform supported in Color? That would help a common round trip tremendously.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Thanks David!

I'll wait

PS: Did you ever spoke with RED guys about the possibility to record directly into Cineform instead of REDRAW?
Or both maybe?
Or that it could be not possible for some reason?



G

This is not going to happen. As much as I LOVE Cineform, REDRaw is FREE, and Cineform is NOT. We need a free system in camera that can move anywhere. However, the transfer speeds from REDRaw to Cineform RAW are so fast, it's not a big deal anyway.

As a matter of fact, one of the things we need in REDCine is a more standard video output like DVCProHD so that we can service those clients who do not have "special systems"

We also need sound support in REDCine.. This is major

Jay

Jay

Jay

 

[David Taylor]

Any progress on seeing Cineform supported in Color? That would help a common round trip tremendously.

Unfortunately it is a problem that Apple has to solve. Color, going back to the pre-Apple days at Final Touch, elected to NOT support QuickTime codecs, and instead to compile in support for only specific codecs. Now that Apple owns Color the problem becomes more acute. Apple has acknowledged the problem and told us (a year ago) they wanted to fix it, but as most people know there are lots of problems with Color, so I'm not sure exactly when this one will be fixed.

 

[Gabriele Turchi]

However, the transfer speeds from REDRaw to Cineform RAW are so fast, it's not a big deal anyway.


Jay

Fast like 1:1 ?... How do you know that if that kind of encoding is not available yet?

Off course i agree about DVDCPRO HD and audio , but i think the Future is to eliminate the proxy and stay always in Online , Cineform says that can play in realtime 4K Raw in quicktime player and finalcut etc...(plus adding layer of metatada like LUT) ...thats is the future to me...

I think that if RED would have that possibility to record it in Camera could be
really Amazing...

Off course have a portable system that can record on CF or hard drive is Amazing but if could be portable + use the Cineform Raw....or that could be technically impossible?

Anyway what RED guys did until today it's Amazing, we all Love and respect that off course


G

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

The trick here is that you are speaking of two different companies that want to make a living. It would be foolish for Cineform to give away it's technology to RED, and why would RED want to pay for something that it's been busting it's butt over for quite a while now.

There may have been a time for something like this to have happened, but it would seem that both companies could not come to an agreement that made them feel that it would be a profitable arrangement.

No one was wrong, it was simply a matter of not being able to agree.

"There are always, possibilities" Spock said, and I'd like to think that some day these two wonderful companies will once again speak of the future, and creating a relationship that not only benefits the both of them, but us as well.

Until that time, Cineform will do everything they can to give us the best possible conversion/mastering/editing tool possible. And RED will give us the best camera.

Jay

 

[RGR films]

hi david
now that the sdk will soon be available, i'm trying to get a system that will be capable of handling my red + cineform project. i'll be shooting a feature in 4k and cutting in premier pro for a digital and film out. our budget is pretty tight... anybody have some advice on building this pc?
thanks in advance
ps- we are new to pc workflow so please use small words

 

[David Taylor]

At CineForm for 4K projects, we are using a few HP xw8600 Dual Quad workstations at 3GHz and above. We find 4K editing more stable with XP64 than XP32. Although the underlying apps are 32 bit, we can instantiate mutiple 2GB address spaces with a 64-bit OS which helps us with app stability with these large image sizes.

CineForm RAW file sizes are roughly 45 MB (+/- 10 MB) per second in sustained data rate (variation based on image statistics). When rendering CineForm RAW, we generally recommend you render to 2K CineForm 444 files. 2K CineForm 444 files are similar in size to 4K CineForm RAW. From these numbers you can design your storage subsystem.

When you're on a budget the big money savers are your storage subsystem and processor speeds. If you go downward on processor speed, performance will degrade accordingly, but it's important to note that your performance won't fall off a cliff. If you go down to 4 cores I'd recommend doing it using a Dual Dual 3GHz at a minimum. Comparatively to a single Quad Core, although you also have 4 cores on a single Quad, you don't have as much memory transfer as on a Dual Dual.

You probably know more about the costs of storage subsystems and different RAID configurations than we do, so I'll leave that exercise to you.

 

[Troy Smith]

Hi Dave, Is there any reason why one would not use your cineform work flow now, baking to cineform 444 and editing in cs3 and that's your master right there, no conforming etc needed, using build 16, isn't it just a matter of going form redcine to cineform qt, then use your conversion tool to wrap in avi.

One other question, do you guys have any ball park time when the conversion tool going from r3d to cineform raw will be out?

Regards stricko

 

[David Taylor]

Stricko108, you are correct, there is no reason why one couldn't use a CineForm 444 workflow from RedCine today, in which case the CineForm 444 files become your new online master from Build 16 source. In general for this workflow we recommend exporting from RedCine at 2K CineForm 444, whereas for CineForm RAW editing of source content we would recommend 4K editing.

For Mac editing you would use the CineForm 444 MOV files created from RedCine. For Windows editing you would use CineForm's HD Link to rewrap the MOV files to AVI files. This process is as fast as a file copy as it does not touch the underlying compression.

To your second question about when we might have a conversion tool from RedCode to CineForm RAW - we, like others, are waiting for Red's SDK. Hopefully that isn't too far away, and hopefully the SDK will enable us to make this conversion. When the SDK becomes available we will prioritize finishing our conversion tools and making them available.

 

[Troy Smith]

Stricko108, you are correct, there is no reason why one couldn't use a CineForm 444 workflow from RedCine today, in which case the CineForm 444 files become your new online master from Build 16 source. In general for this workflow we recommend exporting from RedCine at 2K CineForm 444, whereas for CineForm RAW editing of source content we would recommend 4K editing.

To your second question about when we might have a conversion tool from RedCode to CineForm RAW - we, like others, are waiting for Red's SDK. Hopefully that isn't too far away, and hopefully the SDK will enable us to make this conversion. When the SDK becomes available we will prioritize finishing our conversion tools and making them available.

Thanks for the answers, couple more, I just noticed on your website it says that export from redcine to cineform is not currently working, was that fixed with the latest recent redcine release?

Is 4k Cineform 444 possible, or is it just to taxing on the system?

At the moment is there even a way to get from r3d to cineform raw?



Stricko

 

[David Taylor]

I just noticed on your website it says that export from redcine to cineform is not currently working, was that fixed with the latest recent redcine release?

Yes, the latest RedCine fixes the earlier export problem. I'll need to update the website.

Is 4k Cineform 444 possible, or is it just to taxing on the system?

It is possible, but:
1. As has been discussed in various threads on the forum, 4K RAW, after demosaic, is rougly equivalent to 3K RGB from the standpoint of spatial resolution.

2. From both a system memory and CPU standpoint, 4K CF444 is definitely more taxing than either 4K CRAW or 2K CF444.

Having said the above, I encourage you to experiment with both 4K and 2K CF444 both from a visual quality standpoint and also from a workflow standpoint. If you're doing some effects/compositing shots you may prefer to keep these at 4K then later down-rez to 2K. So there are some mixed modes you can use based on the specific goals you have.

At the moment is there even a way to get from r3d to cineform raw?

There is not.

 

[Troy Smith]

Yes, the latest RedCine fixes the earlier export problem. I'll need to update the website.


.

Sorry for all the questions in one go here today, previously one of the davids from cineform mentioned that export to cineform mov from redcine was limited to 8 bit, is that now 10 bit with the new release of redcine.

Thanks
Stricko

 

[David Taylor]

Yes the latest version of RedCine fixed the export problem. The output is actually 12-bit CineForm 444.

 

[Gian Joon]

At CineForm for 4K projects, we are using a few HP xw8600 Dual Quad workstations at 3GHz and above. We find 4K editing more stable with XP64 than XP32. Although the underlying apps are 32 bit, we can instantiate mutiple 2GB address spaces with a 64-bit OS which helps us with app stability with these large image sizes.

Hi David

Can you please recommend a graphics card as well. I am also in the process of building a PC System which will be used for REDCINE and CINEFORM (Once SDK becomes available). :construction:


Cheers
Joon