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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

CineForm News

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Mark has a great team and is serious about his workflow shit. If he's offering to help you out take the man up on is offer. That's probably like saving $10K :)
 
On a side note... Rob thanks for all your very hard work dude.
 
Thanks dudeman, much appreciated!
 
Jarred Land said:
I remember when the Varicam came out and nothing could deal with its variable frame rates properly. And the DVX came out and nothing supported it's advanced 24p pulldown except for a single application for months ( thank god because thats how i was forced into Sonic Foundry Vegas.... Then the HVX came out and nothing supported P2 except FCP for what seemed like a lifetime.
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Terrible comparison. There's not getting a workflow out in time and there is withholding a workflow. Completely different story.

Reducing choices (even inferior ones) would be a very disturbing position to take. I can't understand what legal grounds RED could possibly stand on to forbid reverse engineering. I can understand Jim not being able to recommend said solutions, but I'm not sure where you guys are coming from in possibly needing to actively supressi it. Am I in violation of *your* exclusivity agreements by opening an r3d without using REDCine? Am I going to be pursued by lawyers for opening a redcode file in a hex editor? Once the exclusivity agreement sunsets will I still be at RED's mercy if they don't like my application? These are legitimate concerns for third party developers who might very cautiously approach the platform if they can't ever feel comfortable. If the openness is in doubt, I think most peole would rather keep their little gadget to themselves than risk getting their hard drives boxed up and taken away as evidence.

It also goes back to the question of what REDUser is. Is it the Official RED Corporate site or is it an independent but RED employee favored site?

By all means offer your own command line tools, be proactive in providing solutions but shutting other solutions down would just wreak of protectionism and an effort to monopolize the workflow sending the exact opposite message to the community than you want.


Back on the topic at hand. The new version made massive strides. What's interesting is though that the REDCine version actually looks like it was a bit pre-sharpened in the debayer process, especially in the noisey bits. It could just be that Cineform is using a softer lower resolution de-bayer now and hasn't fully gotten it dialed in. Either way. The new version is worlds better and resolves all my concerns. If build 14 is going to obsolete build 12 I look forward to what Graeme and company have up their sleeve.

Now I'm just guessing but is the debayer quality setting just a piece of meta data? Could I playback in the lower 10% faster version and then flip a meta tag and render full quality for final comp?
 
im.thatoneguy said:
Terrible comparison. There's not getting a workflow out in time and there is withholding a workflow. Completely different story.

Reducing choices (even inferior ones) would be a very disturbing position to take. I can't understand what legal grounds RED could possibly stand on to forbid reverse engineering. I can understand Jim not being able to recommend said solutions, but I'm not sure where you guys are coming from in possibly needing to actively supressi it. Am I in violation of *your* exclusivity agreements by opening an r3d without using REDCine? Am I going to be pursued by lawyers for opening a redcode file in a hex editor? Once the exclusivity agreement sunsets will I still be at RED's mercy if they don't like my application? These are legitimate concerns for third party developers who might very cautiously approach the platform if they can't ever feel comfortable. If the openness is in doubt, I think most people would rather keep their little gadget to themselves than risk getting their hard drives boxed up and taken away as evidence.

It also goes back to the question of what REDUser is. Is it the Official RED Corporate site or is it an independent but RED employee favored site?

By all means offer your own command line tools, be proactive in providing solutions but shutting other solutions down would just wreak of protectionism and an effort to monopolize the workflow sending the exact opposite message to the community than you want.
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Maybe I should speak more loudly?

We want a community that can add value to RED in every way possible. But we have agreements in place for certain things. We should have just locked the code down until we were done and then opened it up properly. We didn't do that because we didn't anticipate this happening. We will "present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access". That has always been the plan. But having it opened prematurely just isn't good for the community. We are radically changing our code... Build 14.

We told Cineform this in December and expected them to honor our request. They didn't. So here we are. It doesn't change our fundamental philosophy. Why would we encourage it now when we aren't done?

We have been working on the camera, RED Alert!, REDCINE, Command Line tools, accessories, and communication in the most open way possible. We have acknowledged every error and responded to every valid criticism and suggestion in the fastest way possible. People at RED are awake all night trying to serve our customers. But this situation is just not right. If you consider this a failure on this issue... this is the very 1st time we will adamantly disagree. Agreements are binding. Honor is based on one's ability to keep it promises. Period. This is about the community. That includes Apple and Assimilate. Countless hours and money have been spent by all of us on behalf of the community.

We WILL support PC, Windows, Adobe, Avid (assuming they really want us to) and Linux. We will support 3rd parties in every way reasonably possible. But jeez... give us a tiny break.

Jim
 
So REDCode will be encrypted in build 14 I take it?

I just want to know where the line in the sand is. Vague legal threats only spread FUD and cloud the format. And that's a haze that can be hard to blow away later unless you guys are nice and clear now.

Tell us what we can and cannot do and don't leave us guessing is all I suppose I'm asking.

I'm currently in the process of completley redesigning our pipeline at work to make fast, simple and clear. Obviously I'm not making decisions on REDcode right now, but I am keeping an eye on it and trying to stay up to date. It's easier to get a refresher than it is to start from scratch and I want to try and see where I should be leaving wall outlets now.

It's not a question of asking you to break your agreements. By all means you should hold to them and keep them air tight. But I never signed anything if you catch my drift and I don't know where the abyss is in the dark.

--

P.S. Nice dig at Avid... I'm sure Michael would assure you he and Avid don't care about RED at all and he's just here for the dinner mints.
 
We will "present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access" at or about NAB in April. A Command Line tool for PC is scheduled for February.

Jim
 
just got my hands on a RED camera finally, for the first time. there are issues, certainly, especially regarding some quirky audio issues. but overall, this is going to be a life-altering purchase. no exaggeration. what this camera does now, and i'm sure will be enabled to do in the future is awesome. simply awesome. but it's not perfect yet. and neither is the workflow. there is still a lot of work to be done, and RED is clearly dancing just as fast as it can....

then i came home and read this thread. what a letdown, to see this noise.

you have to let this evolve, folks. the camera isn't perfect. the workflow needs even more work, on the surface of things. the quest for the grail is closer to its beginning than its end, still. even with several hundred cameras shipped.

SO--

let these people at RED do their damn jobs, and set them up to succeed for all of us by honoring their agreements with their partners! anything less just sabotages the whole endeavor!

besides being addicted to your own drama, jay, why are you acting so shocked about something that you were explicitly told about the workflow being Mac-centric from the first minute that reduser went online? like it or not, that's the information that you were given. you made your deposit based on that information and now you're blaming RED for your decision?? did you think the magic fairies were going to bring you a PC-centric workflow when word one was, from the inception, "Mac first." this isn't news! i have now witnessed the magic they have worked first-hand. but it's just not finished yet.

you should either give them the room they have requested or get your money back, but this endless childish foot-stamping about how RED has "taken away your workflow" is ridiculous.

there is a magical lantern sitting in front of you and all you see is a bedpan. something wrong there.
 
Audio hiss is fixed in Build 13. Read/reset (skew) back to normal, which means a bit more than a film camera and way less than most other CMOS cameras.

Jim
 
Rudi Herbert said:
They even outperformed Sony's HDCAM SR, which on Claudio Miranda's test outperformed REDCODE.
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You are miss informed, (or have assumed) the F23 used in Claudio Miranda's test was recording dual-link HD-SDI to an S2 field recorder uncompressed.
 
Wow, so this is where everyone is hanging out tonight. :huh:

Jay, calm down, talk to Mark... I also have REDCINE running just fine on two PC systems here, anyone can PM or email me and I'll try and help.

RED is working on solutions, I have faith in them. Build 13 arrived today, build 14 sounds promising. The command line tools are going to be huge -- render farm processing for REDCODE. Sweeeeet.
 
The camera and the attendant Workflow will hit the street faster if it's ported to one platform first. Let the Development Team get it right from A to Z until its bullet-proof on a single, predictable platform. Once the variables are known, the entire workflow can be ported to other computing architectures with greater speed and efficiency. There's only one company in the world that makes Macintosh. Its stable, reliable, has great engineering talent, it's own highly professional Editing and finishing software and they want it to succeed. Its a no-brainer.

Jim and the Folks in Lake Forest are still working the original design brief. Their factory is more akin to Q-Branch than General Motors. Since Jim has included all of us in the development process, it's important to remember that we have a responsibility to him and all the exceptional talent that he's surrounded himself with. Our responsibility is to not make the task harder than it needs to be by diverting critical attention away from the goal.

The goal is: Deploy an operation 4K camera that is robust, reliable and established as a professional format and provide service and a professional workflow to support it. Period. Until that measure is attained, all other issues must take a back seat.

Individual needs for specific problems or work-arounds is a distant, secondary goal. They will be addressed, of course, in the not-too-distant future because that supports goal #1. But please don't put yourselves, your projects and the entire enterprise at risk because you need, want, crave to operate the technology beyond it's current envelope.

Jim has graciously included us in the development process of this wonderful product and when I read the boards I feel like the community isn't keeping up it's end of the bargain sometimes. Jim and Red Team are under a great deal of pressure from all of us who want this camera yesterday, from competitors, from market forces, from just bumping their heads on the ceiling of what's possible and then getting a chainsaw out and cutting a skylight into it. The most pressure has to come from their own desire and drive to win, so let's be better team mates and help them carry the load to the next milestone.

Cutting edge technology CAN and WILL make you bleed if you don't plan properly. Be patient and the promise of this entire endeavor will open up to you and all of us.
 
Jeff Coatney said:
But please don't put yourselves, your projects and the entire enterprise at risk because you need, want, crave to operate the technology beyond it's current envelope.
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Operating beyond the envelope defines what I strive to do. Doing what hasn't been done and finding or creating the technology to get there is what seperates us from sweatshops in thailand. It's what defines RED as a company.

Funny when the RED camera goes up against arbitrary obstacles with Sony we get a rant... when RED users get treated seemingly the same way by RED we're the bad guys.
 
Jannard said:
We will "present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access" at or about NAB in April. A Command Line tool for PC is scheduled for February.

Jim
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Thats what I figured. Looks like a big FCP red work flow and specialty tools to be announced at NAB. Way I see it FCP will have much more to offer red productions for the first few years and maybe more with its red relationship keeping FCP on top.
 
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