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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

CineForm News

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David Newman said:
DNG is totally doable, but not a very video centric workflow.
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Not for motion sequences no, but as RED's tools are all primary correction only, it could be very very cool to be able to send small RAW still reference frames in .DNG to test different final looks for the later grade session or to make production stills.

Or maybe I have just shot too much on my 5D lately?
 
Rocket,

No, no, just saying 4K post will be beyond many for a while, even though CineForm does make 4K easier, many will shoot 4K, and post and master 2K (consider FCP is also not 4K yet.) This still reaps nearly all the benefits of shooting with Red. We going to release without scaling, YUV, etc, yet it these were requested features from beta testers.
 
Anders Holck said:
Not for motion sequences no, but as RED's tools are all primary correction only, it could be very very cool to be able to send small RAW still reference frames in .DNG to test different final looks for the later grade session or to make production stills.

Or maybe I have just shot too much on my 5D lately?
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Once we are beyond the demosaic issues, I will see about adding that.
 
What we found was that to get the best quality we had to start with the best quality 4k debayer and then scale down. This was with red tools and our preliminary tests with cinefors suggest the same. The scaling seems to amplify the artifacts.
 
darkline said:
Hi David,

Can you extract the audio from the R3D file too? Im very concerned that right now the only way to get audio is to drop a proxy into FCP. That limits workflow with any other NLE.

(or is the audio not part of the R3D?)
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It will extact audio add that to the AVI or MOV upon export. Only done limited testing as so few audio online have audio.
 
Rocket said:
Ouch. So are you officially taking a position against 4k? Or has Silicon Imaging just paid you enough to say that 2K is the way to go? ( joke )

I dont want to direct this thread off topic, but I am surprised by your comment. Yes many people will only shoot and post 2k. But this is a 4k camera, and if your tools export 4k, they shouldn't be half-baked, unless of course you clearly state in the application that they are half-ass.

Like I said; I am a big fan of Cineform. I have always thought the CF codec was of top-notch quality, and I think the problem may be that REDCODE may of trumped it quality-wise. I have faith your next release will be better.
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Just because you shoot 4K doesn't mean you should post 4K. Thousands of people shoot HD and post SD. Shooting 4K and posting 2K or 1080p is totally reasonable. Only reason to post 4K is if you have a 4K application for your final piece, meaning 4K projection or film print. All footage for broadcast, DVD, BluRay etc. will be 4K downsampled to 1080p max. Shooting 4K gives you options, no debate there, but scale or zoom to 2K or 1080p are a few of those options.
 
David is going to kill me for this....

Here's what I want...

I WANT A DAMN U.I. (User interface) I know it won't be a pretty as REDCine... I DON'T CARE. Why am I entering all this text/code crap?!

Do I look like some computer/programmer geek? (I didn't offend anyone with that did I? <- as he asks in a room FULL of programmers! ) :)

Seriously, I'm too stupid to keep up with all these command codes, I need a checkbox with the choices, a box for resolution, a checkbox for format/codec. and the a text box with browser for file in, and file out.

Please please please please

Jay
 
Legal has just informed me that we may be in violation of an exclusive agreement we have if we allow REDCODE to be "opened up to the market". The agreement has a time limit. I'm digging to see what this all means. More news as soon as I get to the bottom of this.

Jim
 
As I understood REDCODE is not opened up, as it only has native support by two vendors.

disclaimer- my understanding is sometimes substantially limited. And I'm on pain meds- basketball injury... we won
 
Jannard said:
Legal has just informed me that we may be in violation of an exclusive agreement we have if we allow REDCODE to be "opened up to the market". The agreement has a time limit. I'm digging to see what this all means. More news as soon as I get to the bottom of this.

Jim
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Please work your majic here Jim... We need this... Right now.

Jay
 
Jannard said:
Legal has just informed me that we may be in violation of an exclusive agreement we have if we allow REDCODE to be "opened up to the market". The agreement has a time limit. I'm digging to see what this all means. More news as soon as I get to the bottom of this.

Jim
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I have to ask:
"Exclusivity agreement"? On which part? You're JPEG2000 Compatible which means nobody is reverse engineering a codec. Exclusvity agreement on the metadata envelope? On the 4-plane method of encoding the bayer channels?

Define "opened up to the market"? You mean by not encrypting the image data?

Which part is the concern? Who is the exclusivity agreement with? This had better not be some element to lock us into FCP.
 
We honor deals we make no matter what. If we sold you a camera and told you the price was $17,500 and found out that our costs were $50,000, we would sell you the camera for $17,500. That is the way good business is done. I don't think anyone is asking us to ignore our agreements here. We are digging to find out exactly what the commitments are and how long they last.

We'll keep you posted.

Jim
 
I think what we are asking for Jim, is that you find a way to make this happen. It's important to us and fills an urgent need.

Like I said, I am sure you will handle it and make it work. The guy who fathered RED can certainly handle something like this.

:)

Jay
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
I think what we are asking for Jim, is that you find a way to make this happen. It's important to us and fills an urgent need.

Like I said, I am sure you will handle it and make it work. The guy who fathered RED can certainly handle something like this.

:)

Jay
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Jay... I am investigating as I said I would. But I'm curious. What is the urgent need again?

Jim
 
This unintended butting of heads is somewhat unfortunate,

RED and Jim have proven not only their ethics and honesty but also their commitment to the highest quality time and again. However, it is no less of a truth that to achieve what one considers perfection, one seeks to do it in a very particular way. Matter of fact is, the higher the perfection one seeks, the more defined and particular one's methods and thinking are. And RED's methods clearly are more geared towards FCP first and almost exclusively and as a distant option, AVID. But the truth is there are a lot of us out there that have been making a professional living in this industry for many years that have amassed a tool kit based on Adobe that feel somewhat left out. I don't wish to start another Apple vs. PC debate or whatever here, but I refuse to learn another system, a system that will NOT produce any better results than the system I currently use, just because nowadays, as AVID was before FCP came into its own, FCP is the "professional choice". And I won't change that because of RED or any other product, however cool and revolutionary it may be.

Now, even before RED had formed in Jim's mind, Cineform was already working on Wavelet compressors and their support for Premiere makes that NLE one of the most complete, if not the most, systems on the market and one that exhibits amazingly high quality. They even outperformed Sony's HDCAM SR, which on Claudio Miranda's test outperformed REDCODE. I have used Cineform and believe it to be an amazing codec, devoid in fact in some SI-2K originated footage I've seen, of some of the problems that show up here and there on RED footage. Then again, compressing 2K footage is easier than compressing a 4K stream. But truth is, if Cineform were not recompressing the already compressed REDCODE, I doubt there would be these quality issues at all. And the truth also is that Cineform is doing their best at what they've done so well so far: enabling a real time, high quality PC workflow, something that, for totally acceptable reasons, seems VERY low on RED's list of priorities. And the truth also is that Jim has every right to be protective of his baby if a step in quality is taken backwards. But Cineform or not, somebody will need to cater to the hundreds, and eventually thousands of RED buyers out there, that are PC/Adobe based. And sooner rather than later. Plain and simple. So let's understand where everybody is coming from and not point any fingers that need not be raised, especially if you are already editing on your polished Apples with FCP anyway...
 
Jannard said:
Jay... I am investigating as I said I would. But I'm curious. What is the urgent need again?

Jim
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Thank you for the question!

On a number of PCs REDCine will not output Quicktime files. The first frame just freezes. This seems to be caused by a number of reasons ranging from old graphics cards to something screwy with Quicktime.

Also: PC users cannot edit in Quicktime well, we live in an AVI world. Assuming we could render our Quicktime files, we would still have to re-wrap into AVI.

The command line App by Cineform solves both of these issues and affords PCs users a somewhat useable workflow. We already like the cineform codec, so we're good to go for now.

I hope this answers your question. :)

Jay
 
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