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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cineform 4K solution?

Don King said:
Here's the question!
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You do not need a powerful machine to edit 4K with multiple realtime streams in Prospect/Premiere. I think the real question is how much performance is gained from a quad or octa core powerhouse...
 
let others answer the question.. i'm also curious on both doubts.. why any performance if it will be out of price range?.. for example, fcp at mac to me it is..
 
Modern workstations are still desirable, there will still be operations that we use all the available horse power, like running a 4K render through After Effects in 32-bit float (150MB per frame.) While a REDCODE DirectShow implementation could be made real-time through our media pipe, that would require more from Red's development end (assuming we can't rewrap it,) without a DirectShow version of REDCODE we will be transcoding to CineForm, now we expect you will want that as fast as it can be, so an octo will help a lot. The decoding and editing requirements for CineForm files are very light, but the whole 4K world will consume CPU power like crazy. While I have done an RT 24p 4k dissolve on a 3GHz P4, I wouldn't want to render on that PC -- a good dual-dual or quad with 1333MHz FSB will be a desirable starting point -- i.e. a $1500-$2000 PC, but you can likely make do we what you have.
 
So Jason, what would happen if you HAD 8 core monsters to run things on?
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Well, seeing that a 2-year-old Pentium D was able to handle dual-stream RAW 4K/24P playback with a color-correction and title-overlay (yes, this is not a typo and I was amazed myself at how much I was piling on without dropped frames), I would only venture to guess . . . :)

As David notes though, the faster machine, the better the experience. But this isn't something you're going to have to drop $10K on for a suitable machine. The technology is here now even on low-cost desktop workstations using Intel Core-architecture chips (and again, as David notes, $2K is a reasonable cost for such a machine).

BTW, if anyone is curious, the 4K RAW files I was doing the CineForm RAW demo with were from the Dalsa Origin. It was some scenes from the cowboy shootout (some of you may have seen that Dalsa footage in their demos).
 
Thanks David and Jason. Your presence is quite welcome among us!

Your news are amazing and surprisingly suitable for our upcoming RED footage use. 4K online editing @ $2K + software... WOW

I've already added my vote rating this thread.
 
Jason Rodriguez said:
I even went to the extent of showing one customer who had purchased a RED and was worried about real-time performance editing on the PC a 4K demo in Premiere Pro, with two streams of 4K running in realtime on an older 3.0Ghz Pentium D system.
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Jason,

That must have been you that I was referring to in the earlier post.

Thanks for all your help. You were a true gentleman.

-Thor Wixom
 
Emanuel said:
Thanks David and Jason. Your presence is quite welcome among us!

Your news are amazing and surprisingly suitable for our upcoming RED footage use. 4K online editing @ $2K + software... WOW

I've already added my vote rating this thread.
Click to expand...

Who said anything about online editing? What I assume is being talked about here is proxy editing for offline on a PC. Final finishing is a whole different ballgame.
 
While you could move footage to a finishing system, like SpeedGrade DI which can directly use CineForm files, or convert to DPX for other finishing systems, it is not necessary for those with a limited budget. The CineForm process is an on-line one, your 4K+ files can available at full resolution whenever you need. Yes wavelet techniques are exploited for fast manipulation during editing sessions, however no proxy file every need to be created. There are many high-end customers that will still prefer the offline then online approach, but we have always targetted the indie guy who tends to throw the traditional methods out for the cost savings, or pure experimentation. I think there are many of our type of customer within the Red user community.
 
mmost said:
Who said anything about online editing? What I assume is being talked about here is proxy editing for offline on a PC. Final finishing is a whole different ballgame.
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you're a fresh one.. ehehehe emanuel is a respectful known member over here.. REDuser furniture.. ehehehe no offense Mister.. did you know the search button on the head bar above your eyes?.. actually, they're already old ones.. but they're always great news..

Mr. David Newman, we love you!
 
ive been considering cineform for a while, so i downloaded the aspect HD demo, but could not get it to work.

Everytime i click 'convert' to convert my P2 hvx file (720/25p) to cineform codec, it crashed. I played with the preferences, installed it on another machine, where it crashed too no matter what the settings were. I couldnt get 1 file to convert to cineform with 'HDlink'

I uninstalled the Aspect demo and installed the new Neo demo (even tho this is not exactly for premiere pro). This time it converted the files and they played back great; but I had problems when editing the neo files in premiere. for one downcoverting to Sd via 'export movie' was producing this wierd flickering.

dont get me wrong, it looks great, but there appears to be some teething problems from my very limited experience. I would hope these are ironed out by the time Red gets here. I would definately like to use a demo before I comitted to anything.
 
Darkline, sorry you had trouble. Aspect HD and NEO HD use the same HDLink conversion tools, so likely you had an installer issue the first time around with Aspect (as NEO worked, so should Aspect HD.) And yes Aspect HD is designed for Premiere Pro, not NEO. Contact support and they will get you up and running.
 
i did install aspect HD on two seperate machines and they both came up with the crash when trying to convert 720/25p to cineform. Neo worked on both.

but what do I know? If I decide to install it again i'll drop your support and e-mail before I do.

are you aware of the scaling issue when you try to export SD from the timeline (pro 1.5)? it produces lots of horizontal flickering bars, similar to what you get when you've got a faulty BNC lead piping a monitor.

For my test purposes i had to export at its native size and then scale down in AE in order to get it to work.
 
The downscale error was a recent bug that impacted SD outputs only, it is fixed in the next build out Monday or Tuesday. It only impacted SD as it was a threading bug in the 709 to 601 colorspace conversion. Your install issues with Aspect HD maybe related to your old Premiere 1.5 install, do mention that to support as we do very little testing in 1.5 now that CS3 is out (fully testing PPRo 1.5, 2.0 and CS3 is not practical, so we focus on 2.0 and CS3.) Premiere 1.5 is still offically support for Aspect HD, but it is dropped for Prospect HD and 2K (supporting 2.0 and CS3 only.)
 
ok david, thanks for your help. i might give it another go in the future when i upgrade my prem and get Red.

one other question I had, are there any plans, or does cineform already support SDI output with anyone like Aja/Blackmagic?
 
CineForm's Prospect HD/2K support the AJA Xena line for input and output and timeline monitoring. Also all our products support both AJA and Blackmagic products for RT capture from HDSDI or HDMI sources within HDLink. Many ask when we will be adding blackmagic support for output and timeline monitor, we would like to, however that are so many development items on our schedule, that is still a way off. We recommend the AJA Xena LHe for most work.
 
filmmaker's gang said:
you're a fresh one.. ehehehe emanuel is a respectful known member over here.. REDuser furniture.. ehehehe no offense Mister.. did you know the search button on the head bar above your eyes?.. actually, they're already old ones.. but they're always great news..

Mr. David Newman, we love you!
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Ditto...

:)​
 
All this 4K editing sounds great. But what resolution & quality are you actually *looking* at when doing that?
 
Thanks for chiming in Rob. Generally a 4K editing session will be played back at 1k or 2K during preview, at 1k it is really fast supporting many layers and RT filter operations on stock/cheap/laptop PCs, and at 2k you can still do a 24p dissolve but it should be nice a workstation PC. In either case the preview is presented (optionally) to an AKA Xena card for color accurate monitoring. Quality is very high. When scrubbing or stopped on the timeline, a full 4K decode/demosaic/3D-LUT is presented using 32-bit float -- of course it is tricky for anyone to see a 4k image in all its glory, but you can set the display for 100% 1:1 pixel view to see exactly want is happening with your 9+ million pixels. Currently this performance experience is for Adobe Premiere 2.0 or CS3 on Window XP (Vista mostly works but avoid it for a little while longer if you can) and we are finishing up our FCS port, although due to some Apple restictions it will not be quite as RT -- as you know, Apple is not so third-party codec friendly for their RT modes -- yet it works pretty well.
 
David, what about Premiere CS3 on OSX? Will there be a Prospect 2K version for OSX later on? How much difference is there on the backend between the Windows and the OSX version for the RT stuff? Or will Neo 2K stay your only offering for OSX?

I have come to like the Cineform Realtime engine and would greatly miss it on OSX. Sure, there is bootcamp but I want to switch to OSX completely and still be able to use the PR & AE integration.

Thanks,
Mike
 
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