Che

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Shots in the woods look contrasty. News at Eleven.

---

People keep mentioning Soderberg and asking "Why would he shoot with Red if it looked so bad?" And I would remind these individuals to take another look at Full Frontal or the film he shot on the F900. He doesn't exactly have a reputation for being an "uncompromising" film maker when it comes to picture quality. Sometimes he just likes to shoot movies without dealing with production. I'm not making a judgement of the picture since I haven't seen it... but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that he didn't sweat blood to get a perfect picture.

 

[Andrew M.]

I've got the solution!!

Soderbergh should simply rent "my" Red camera, 'cause it sure can take some white clouds and still have nice shadow details… just to say:clown2:

Shot without any Mattebox or filter.

Emmanuel

Very nice, I see it when I pay attention to the histograms of every color. Then it looks almost like HDR shot.
I understand though that 4.5 hour feature needs some safety margin or better tools to work with to get such results. I think tools are being addressed in the new firmware 16.

As to the safety margin, I don't understand why it is so difficult to give us HDR shutter speed bracketing.
It will take one weekend to implement it on the RED menu.
Then leave it to us to test it and make best out of it.

 

[Ed Watkins]

I am a first time poster, but I would like to think I 'm not a poser. I have an Oscar for Visual effects. I've studied images a bit. Amongst other things, I fancy I know dynamic range and clipping when I see it. I think I know the difference between great image quality and sub-standard image quality.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but when you offer a critique, and claim the qualifications to do so, could you also provide your real name?

I think your points about dynamic range are very valid I have been disappointed with it on my cameras, but I would be better able to assess the other statements if I knew who was saying them.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Somebody found via googling his email (film101@...) on the Internet that was Robert Blalack

LINK>>>

Could be him?!

Nobody can confirm this except man himself.

 

[Martin Widerberg]

I saw Che in Cannes and are happy to with my decision to order one. I think the second part looked much better though. And would like to know why. Is it a later build? Did the crew have a learning curve with the camera? Did they grade it differently? Has it anything to do with the anamorphic lenses?(Doubt it). I can't wait to get mine. In July, I hope.

Martin

 

[Finner]

I think your points about dynamic range are very valid I have been disappointed with it on my cameras, but I would be better able to assess the other statements if I knew who was saying them.

Hi Ed,

Myself and others have been posting for months that the DR of the camera is 8-9 stops in the best conditions and as low as 5-7 in warm 2400-2600k lighting. Thing is people with no clue or experience with the camera argue and flame profesionals that post these results. Hence pro discussions on DR have gone elsewhere online and are rarely disscussed here. Many very good examples of DR (red channel tending to clip the soonest) were posted but have been pulled now because of the bad behavior of others.

Red footage can look fantastic but knowing the limitations of the sensor is key to that. Being uneducated and shooting like the sensor has 14 stops will only give poor results. Shoot for 8 stops and your footage will look fantastic and you can push the highlights above the 8stops here and there to push things and determine what you feel is acceptable from there. 8 stops will keep the image in a safe range though when starting.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi Ed,

Myself and others have been posting for months that the DR of the camera is 8-9 stops in the best conditions and as low as 5-7 in warm 2400-2600k lighting. Thing is people with no clue or experience with the camera argue and flame profesionals that post these results. Hence pro discussions on DR have gone elsewhere online and are rarely disscussed here. Many very good examples of DR (red channel tending to clip the soonest) were posted but have been pulled now because of the bad behavior of others.

Red footage can look fantastic but knowing the limitations of the sensor is key to that. Being uneducated and shooting like the sensor has 14 stops will only give poor results. Shoot for 8 stops and your footage will look fantastic and you can push the highlights above the 8stops here and there to push things and determine what you feel is acceptable from there. 8 stops will keep the image in a safe range though when starting.

It could be very nice that Finner show some of his shooting

examples with RED and with a bit in detail info how he did it

(just because he knows best as he said ) .

 

[David Mullen ASC]

You guys have to stop jumping on anyone who reports seeing a flaw in some RED footage, or conversely, trying to convince everyone that the flaws don't matter. It comes off as trying to cover up any problems.

People like Matt Uhry are just reporting dryly and technically about what they saw with their own eyes, they aren't making things up. The RED camera is going to succeed anyway, so it doesn't need help in covering up its flaws. The more you guys jump over the critics, the worse you make the camera seem because it makes other people think the problems must be even worse than what is being talked about. Cover-ups never work, they only cause people to indulge in conspiracy theories. The opposite approach would be better -- bore people to death with discussions of the technical limitations until they turn off, rather than interest them in the limitations by trying to cover them up. Certainly it's my goal to bore people with technical discussions...:wink:

It would be better to not take everything so personally and just be honest about what you see, good and bad, so that future generations of the RED can address and solve the problems. The extreme opinions on both sides only add to the noise level here that drives some professionals away, the people who just want to figure out how to use the camera to its best advantage and ability, not get snowballed or flamed, etc.

 

[Finner]

Highly qualified DP's already posted a ton of excellent test footage. You were one of the main people that flamed them and the reason they left Sanjin. Do you not remember that?

Now we speak about these and other things privately online. There are many tests and information of red frame grabs and footage that are discussed and figured out. It unfortunately for many is no longer done here on reduser.

 

[Ed Watkins]

Hi Ed,

Myself and others have been posting for months that the DR of the camera is 8-9 stops in the best conditions and as low as 5-7 in warm 2400-2600k lighting. Thing is people with no clue or experience with the camera argue and flame profesionals that post these results. Hence pro discussions on DR have gone elsewhere online and are rarely disscussed here. Many very good examples of DR (red channel tending to clip the soonest) were posted but have been pulled now because of the bad behavior of others.

Red footage can look fantastic but knowing the limitations of the sensor is key to that. Being uneducated and shooting like the sensor has 14 stops will only give poor results. Shoot for 8 stops and your footage will look fantastic and you can push the highlights above the 8stops here and there to push things and determine what you feel is acceptable from there. 8 stops will keep the image in a safe range though when starting.

Don't get me wrong Finner, I agree with your estimations. I just like to know who's doing the estimating so that I can make educated decisions about what is reality and what is hype. It's a shame this forum has gotten a reputation for flaming.

Personally I would estimate the footage I have been shooting has somewhere between 6-8 stops of latitude (depending on the light temp), which is great, but it is not the 10 stops that was initially touted when I reserved my cameras way, way back. That is why I am a little disappointed, not because of the current image quality.

 

[Finner]

Certainly it's my goal to bore people with technical discussions...:wink:

You would be shocked how poorly that same tactic works on picking chicks up at the bar.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

We are pretty on the border here.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

You would be shocked how poorly that same tactic works on picking chicks up at the bar.

Some chicks are pretty technical, while being technically pretty at the same time.

 

[10s]

David maybe some ASC folks like yourself, when time permits, could run a few cameras through objective tests and report out the results. Afterall don't these issues fall under the ASC mission & charter? I would like to read an article in American Cinematography on the camera's abilities & limitations.

 

[Finner]

David maybe some ASC folks like yourself, when time permits, could run a few cameras through objective tests and report out the results. Afterall don't these issues fall under the ASC mission & charter? I would like to read an article in American Cinematography on the camera's abilities & limitations.

Already been done by high level ASC DP's. The results were pulled after being flamed by some of the inexperienced people here. These tests have now been pushed underground away from reduser.

 

[Jannard]

Personally I would estimate the footage I have been shooting has somewhere between 6-8 stops of latitude (depending on the light temp), which is great, but it is not the 10 stops that was initially touted when I reserved my cameras way, way back. That is why I am a little disappointed, not because of the current image quality.

If you are getting 6-8 stops of latitude, you might consider the discussion on exposing and grading... no disrespect intended. There are several ways to increase latitude with technique.

If someone was getting 6 stops and someone else was getting 10 stops... I'd want to know what the 2nd guy was doing.

Jim

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I don't really take anyone's estimations of number of stops of DR too seriously because most people are just talking in personal generalizations for practical shooting purposes, i.e. thinking to themselves "I generally can go three over and five under" -- 8 stops -- even though testing will show more stops of information are being recorded. But it doesn't hurt to start out thinking you have a more limited range to work in rather than rely on the best-case theoretical range.

I know it doesn't make camera manufacturers happy to hear us talk that way because they sell cameras based on specs. I was looking over at Fletcher Cameras chart comparing cameras and it said something like 9 stops for the F900R and 10 stops for the RED ONE, and whether or not those are accurate figures, it seems to me that I'm getting another stop of range from the RED compared to my work on the F900.

Plus I find that the way that the RED sensor seems to clip images is less harsh and ugly than other HD cameras, maybe that's a CMOS characteristic, or a RAW characteristic, but it strikes me as looking more "filmic". But certainly I'm seeing more clipping than I would with color negative film.

 

[Filipo]

The Red One has most filmic picture of all digital cameras as we've seen.

Depth of field is not problem for years on a digital cameras and we have 4K resoultion.

My question is :

How will directors of photography accept digital cinematography (such as RED) ?

We know that only Steven Soderbergh is using RED for feature films.

 

[Ed Watkins]

If you are getting 6-8 stops of latitude, you might consider the discussion on exposing and grading... no disrespect intended. There are several ways to increase latitude with technique.

If someone was getting 6 stops and someone else was getting 10 stops... I'd want to know what the 2nd guy was doing.

Jim

None taken, that's why I'm currently trying to figure out what the 10 stop guys are doing, and who's opinions are the ones to follow.... plus, it's only under warmer lower light conditions that I get 6 stops.

 

[Andrew M.]

None taken, that's why I'm currently trying to figure out what the 10 stop guys are doing, and who's opinions are the ones to follow.... plus, i"m only getting 6 under warmer lower light conditions.

Did you try the same with film? How many stops you can pull off using film in the same condition?

Maybe you do have more experience with film and you know all what need be for film only?

We had many posts with DR test on RED but looks like no one is going to do it on film to compare with.

I would really appreciate to see side by side standard film and RED test in the same setup.
I can contribute equipment and time here in DC.