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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

change to module?? in the CF Upgrade Package

W

WesG

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Hi Brent, Jarred and team.

With the upgrade package from Epic to Weapon the included module is the Weapon REDVOLT XL Module.

The package is great overall in my mind, except for this module, given we don't have XL Redvolts and we have always run V-lock batteries. Reading all the threads it seems that there are many upgraders in a similar position. Looking at the XL module wondering what they're going to do with it.

Would Red consider looking at providing an alternative swap out??

I'd happily swap it out for a BASE or REDVOLT Expander and pay the additional costs.

Understand that spreadsheets, yields etc determine many of these decisions but
is this something that could be considered?

Would make a significant difference to those running on minimal set-ups and squeezing everything to stay the upgrade path.
 
+1. Is there some way not to go Revolt XL. I would much prefer Revolt expander. Base does not include gig e which the Dragon I'm trading in has. And Jetpack needs SDI. Revolt Expander and a Jetpack with SDI would be great pair.
 
WesG, bundles are what they are. I believe I explained in another thread why we chose the contents for them and how it relates to supply chain and such. Remember, you are getting the accessories in the upgrade packages at no charge.

Plus, I don't think you guys or Red can handle another level of complexity with the upgrades, to be honest.

That and your $5000 accessory credit easily covers cost of the Redvolt Expander.
 
You are not giving anything at not charge, in order to received those you are asking people to pay at least $17,000

You basically forcing people to buy stuff they don't really want, I think thats a bad business philosophy.

just Before NAB a memtum was created but now this moments is gone because of decisions like these. I'm sure you guys are really aware of what is going on by looking at the amount of people actually upgrading to Weapon.

You always said RED is an open company that always listen people but listening people without actually making any changes is NOT really listening.





Brent@RED said:
WesG, bundles are what they are. I believe I explained in another thread why we chose the contents for them and how it relates to supply chain and such. Remember, you are getting the accessories in the upgrade packages at no charge.

Plus, I don't think you guys or Red can handle another level of complexity with the upgrades, to be honest.

That and your $5000 accessory credit easily covers cost of the Redvolt Expander.
Click to expand...
 
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Andy, we are allowing people to upgrade and get a brain plus accessories for the same price as a new camera brain only. For example, you upgrade to CF WEAPON, you get brain, top handle, base expander, REDVOLT XL module, Sidekick, MG PL Mount, and Lemo adaptor for $49,500. A new CF WEAPON brain is $49,500.

Not to mention, upgraders get an additional $5000. And we are offering a trade-in credit for your existing camera.

We are not "forcing" anyone to do anything. If you don't want to upgrade, don't. If you rather buy a new brain and not get any accessories for the same price, go for it.

It already took us a week to get everyone on the same page as far as our upgrade program, adding another level of complexity just muddies the water more.

And we never listen, Andy? Originally, the $5000 accessory credit for upgraders was only going to be for orders placed during NAB. We changed that to no deadline. Originally, the 8K sensor upgrade for $10K and the $5000 accessory credit on new WEAPON camera buys was going to be during NAB only. We have already extended that over a week. Both of those choices due to suggestions from the forum. What other camera companies have the President of the company plus others from the executive management team on a forum presenting information, listening to feedback, and making choices based off that? And have been doing that since 2006?

Sorry, man, if that is not good enough for you, I don't know what else I can tell you. Just because requests sometimes do not make business sense or impossible to do for RED, does not mean we don't listen and act. If we complied to every request every person made on here that got a dozen "+1's", do you think we'd still have the lights on at RED? As Jarred said, we do have a business to run.

Time for a self-imposed REDUSER timeout for 24 hours.
 
Brent@RED said:
Andy, we are allowing people to upgrade and get a brain plus accessories for the same price as a new camera brain only. For example, you upgrade to CF WEAPON, you get brain, top handle, base expander, REDVOLT XL module, Sidekick, MG PL Mount, and Lemo adaptor for $49,500. A new CF WEAPON brain is $49,500.

Not to mention, upgraders get an additional $5000. And we are offering a trade-in credit for your existing camera.

We are not "forcing" anyone to do anything. If you don't want to upgrade, don't. If you rather buy a new brain and not get any accessories for the same price, go for it.

It already took us a week to get everyone on the same page as far as our upgrade program, adding another level of complexity just muddies the water more.

And we never listen, Andy? Originally, the $5000 accessory credit for upgraders was only going to be for orders placed during NAB. We changed that to no deadline. Originally, the 8K sensor upgrade for $10K and the $5000 accessory credit on new WEAPON camera buys was going to be during NAB only. We have already extended that over a week. Both of those choices due to suggestions from the forum. What other camera companies have the President of the company plus others from the executive management team on a forum presenting information, listening to feedback, and making choices based off that? And have been doing that since 2006?

Sorry, man, if that is not good enough for you, I don't know what else I can tell you. Just because requests sometimes do not make business sense or impossible to do for RED, does not mean we don't listen and act. If we complied to every request every person made on here that got a dozen "+1's", do you think we'd still have the lights on at RED? As Jarred said, we do have a business to run.

Time for a self-imposed REDUSER timeout for 24 hours.
Click to expand...

Just going to add a little positive reinforcement for when Brent returns from his 24 hour recharge.... THANKS MAN!... for "forcing" all this swag upon me '-)
 
James Falco said:
Anyone remember the quad battery module that was part of the Epic M upgrade package.
http://www.red.com/store/products/pro-battery-module-quad

History is repeating itself. We are about to see a flood of used XL Modules on the market in the near future.

… just saying not complaining. I am happy with the situation.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I complained when they forced a Ti PL mount on me when upgrading to Epic X. Immediately sold that at a $200 discount to the list price. I suspect some who buy a Weapon Brain only will find a nice collection of Weapon Upgrade AKS to buy at a discount.
 
My Apologies If I sounded rude on my words, You guys at red are awesome and passionated about what you do (Who else is going to take Sunday morning to respond to a comment like my) an that's one of the reason I bought your system.

But there is a point than Heart and Brain don't communicate well. Camera tech is moving really fast, Cameras like the FS7 for $7,000 or the Amira with all those films behind selling for $35,000 seem like a bargain, Something doesn't seen right on weapon price and Upgrade choices . Honestly I don't see too many people willing to invest $34,500 on a naked Mangesium weapon Brain these days. I may be totally wrong. time will tell... I only hope you guys know what you are doing and really listening :)





Brent@RED said:
Andy, we are allowing people to upgrade and get a brain plus accessories for the same price as a new camera brain only. For example, you upgrade to CF WEAPON, you get brain, top handle, base expander, REDVOLT XL module, Sidekick, MG PL Mount, and Lemo adaptor for $49,500. A new CF WEAPON brain is $49,500.

Not to mention, upgraders get an additional $5000. And we are offering a trade-in credit for your existing camera.

We are not "forcing" anyone to do anything. If you don't want to upgrade, don't. If you rather buy a new brain and not get any accessories for the same price, go for it.

It already took us a week to get everyone on the same page as far as our upgrade program, adding another level of complexity just muddies the water more.

And we never listen, Andy? Originally, the $5000 accessory credit for upgraders was only going to be for orders placed during NAB. We changed that to no deadline. Originally, the 8K sensor upgrade for $10K and the $5000 accessory credit on new WEAPON camera buys was going to be during NAB only. We have already extended that over a week. Both of those choices due to suggestions from the forum. What other camera companies have the President of the company plus others from the executive management team on a forum presenting information, listening to feedback, and making choices based off that? And have been doing that since 2006?

Sorry, man, if that is not good enough for you, I don't know what else I can tell you. Just because requests sometimes do not make business sense or impossible to do for RED, does not mean we don't listen and act. If we complied to every request every person made on here that got a dozen "+1's", do you think we'd still have the lights on at RED? As Jarred said, we do have a business to run.

Time for a self-imposed REDUSER timeout for 24 hours.
Click to expand...
 
Andy Corleone said:
You are not giving anything at not charge, in order to received those you are asking people to pay at least $17,000

You basically forcing people to buy stuff they don't really want, I think thats a bad business philosophy.

just Before NAB a memtum was created but now this moments is gone because of decisions like these. I'm sure you guys are really aware of what is going on by looking at the amount of people actually upgrading to Weapon.

You always said RED is an open company that always listen people but listening people without actually making any changes is NOT really listening.
Click to expand...

if you dont want that option you can always skip upgrading and sell camera.
 
Andy Corleone said:
...

Honestly I don't see too many people willing to invest $34,500 on a naked Mangesium weapon Brain these days. I may be totally wrong. time will tell... I only hope you guys know what you are doing and really listening :)
Click to expand...

From observing all the enthusiasm at NAB, I would bet you are wrong here. I watched the commentary here online for a first couple days of NAB, then went to Las Vegas. I'd say the negative types were rather vocal here while all the "hardcore" were getting excited in LV. I really don't think RED will have a problem selling Weapons.
 
Andy Corleone said:
snip:
But there is a point than Heart and Brain don't communicate well. Camera tech is moving really fast, Cameras like the FS7 for $7,000 or the Amira with all those films behind selling for $35,000 seem like a bargain, Something doesn't seen right on weapon price and Upgrade choices . Honestly I don't see too many people willing to invest $34,500 on a naked Mangesium weapon Brain these days.
Click to expand...

I think anyone that is in the market for a new Epic Dragon and not on a super tight budget will go for the $34500 mag weapon instead of the EpicX dragon for $24,000 simply to get the technology, prores and other improvements and to be on the more current platform since they will be spreading that cost over several years. ($10.5K but more like $8K after tax depreciation deductions).

It really is more that if you already have an Epic Dragon like me (and I presume you) then it really doesn't provide enough added value for most of us to upgrade - and maybe we are a little disappointed because we have always been able to make financial sense out of keeping current and now we can't. I figure to sit tight and make nice 6K pictures for awhile and see how good the weapon 8K really is and if it makes sense, sell the Epic dragon and buy new - or see what else is available in the market then since we are probably a year away from actually obtaining one through upgrade anyway.

I suspect the market will be a little more confused then. Most of the main chip manufacturing companies have nearly the same level of technology as it advances - so sensor price tends to be as much about volume as it does actual hard cost to make. So we may see several companies with equivalent 8k cameras. Regardless of how dismissive those of us that already have the higher end cameras can be - the reality is BMD, Sony, etc. are already nipping at the heels of RED and Arri. And we also may have the choice of full frame 6K with larger photosites, better DR and lower light capability.

Or consider that the original red timeline had a 9K 645 sensor out in spring of 2010 so maybe someone else will actually do that - or even higher resolution - and make Jeff Kilgroe really happy. (autocorrect always wants to change kilgroe to kilgore - must be a vonnegut fan)

Elsie N said:
Yeah, I complained when they forced a Ti PL mount on me when upgrading to Epic X. Immediately sold that at a $200 discount to the list price. I suspect some who buy a Weapon Brain only will find a nice collection of Weapon Upgrade AKS to buy at a discount.
Click to expand...


Elsie, I did the same thing - sold the tiPL for $1750 and bought the canon mount that I wanted for $700, so I looked at it as an additional $1000 discount on the package since I don't think Red really factored that whole $2000 for the list price of a tiPL mount into our upgrade package price.

Later bought an aluminum lumber camera PL mount for $380 that handles any of my need for PL mount just fine - so still $600 -700 ahead.
 
Michael Hastings said:
I think anyone that is in the market for a new Epic Dragon and not on a super tight budget will go for the $34500 mag weapon instead of the EpicX dragon for $24,000 simply to get the technology, prores and other improvements and to be on the more current platform since they will be spreading that cost over several years. ($10.5K but more like $8K after tax depreciation deductions).

It really is more that if you already have an Epic Dragon like me (and I presume you) then it really doesn't provide enough added value for most of us to upgrade - and maybe we are a little disappointed because we have always been able to make financial sense out of keeping current and now we can't. I figure to sit tight and make nice 6K pictures for awhile and see how good the weapon 8K really is and if it makes sense, sell the Epic dragon and buy new - or see what else is available in the market then since we are probably a year away from actually obtaining one through upgrade anyway.

I suspect the market will be a little more confused then. Most of the main chip manufacturing companies have nearly the same level of technology as it advances - so sensor price tends to be as much about volume as it does actual hard cost to make. So we may see several companies with equivalent 8k cameras. Regardless of how dismissive we that already have the higher end cameras can be - the reality is BMD, Sony, etc. are already nipping at the heels of RED and Arri. And we also may have the choice of full frame 6K with larger photosites, better DR and lower light capability.

Or consider that the original red timeline had a 9K 645 sensor out in spring of 2010 so maybe someone else will actually do that - or even higher resolution - and make Jeff Kilgroe really happy. (autocorrect always wants to change kilgroe to kilgore - must be a vonnegut fan)




Elsie, I did the same thing - sold the tiPL for $1750 and bought the canon mount that I wanted for $700, so I looked at it as an additional $1000 discount on the package since I don't think Red really factored that whole $2000 for the list price of a tiPL mount into our upgrade package price.

Later bought an aluminum lumber camera PL mount for $380 that handles any of my need for PL mount just fine - so still $600 -700 ahead.
Click to expand...

I think the same thing could play out again except this time I would be a buyer. That is, I will if my #1 camera sells. Otherwise I will upgrade it instead of buying CF Weapon 8k new.
 
I'm not complaining about the upgrade deal for one second - the offer was clear from the start to me and I took it it up without too much thinking.

However...... ;)

as originally suggested, my guess is that many upgraders do not want the Redvolt XL module.

If this is true, then this is a huge waste of resources - dollars, time and environmental.

I'd happily pay for a module swap out - not asking for a discount or a better deal.

Maybe once the dust settles this could be offered when the time comes and the upgrades start rolling out??

Brent, my intention is to contribute, not nit pick - come back to ye old forum, we like having you here (never seen any other camera company respond to customers like Red does).
 
One of the things that really hurt is how the price of the camera went down overnight to $17,000 (in my case Epic-M) there is no way anybody will be buying a new epic dragon if they are thinking in do weapon upgrade in some point, these people will simply rent, buy a different brand or wait for Weapon to be availble. other option for them is buying a second hand. used prices are really low right now. I'm not sure if this will change but it seem that if somebody bought and epic-M dragon before NAB for $31,200 and wanted to sell it now, it will have a hard time find a buyer willing to pay $21,000.

Current upgrade path is a mistake, This is the first time a red upgrade program gives back so little for the used camera in relation to the current new camera price.

I honestly think if red offer something like this would make more sense for everybody:
Want Weapon? Pay us $10,000 (without $5,000 credit neither RedVolt XL module) I think nobody will complain, red will still be selling current Epic and Scarlets and more people will actually pay for the $5,000 deposit.

Is OK for companies to make some mistakes but is important if they fix them on time, Pushing people to upgrades to dragon before NAB (if these were thinking is going to weapon) seem like a bad trick, knowing the actual upgrades prices:

Two scenarios:
1) Scarlet for $10,500 + $9,500 upgrade to weapon before NAB now $29,500 weapon Upgrade: Total price for the upgrade: $49,500
2) Scarlet for $10,500 Sell it for $7,500 + $34,500 New weapon: total price for the upgrade: $37,500

If people knew current upgrade options before upgrading to dragon there is not way they would had done the dragon upgrade. You upgrade option are not right and somebody at Red need to address that issue.

As I said before you guys are really passionate and hardworking and there is still a lot of support but some people like me are waiting for a fix. With current prices RED cameras don’t seem like a great invest as they used to be.
 
24 hours are up...

All fair feedback.

I know I posted this on another thread, but worth repeating. "If upgrade programs were logical and easy to execute, everyone would be doing it". Instead, most companies much rather obsolete your camera after a year or two, giving you no choice but to live with your current tech or buy a new camera.

We do put a ton of thought in laying out these programs. We actually have a dedicated conference room with no windows where we whiteboard hour after hour in prep for this. And, yes, on the fly, we change some stuff (usually for the better for the customer) based on initial feedback. And while we always listen, we sometimes have to separate what is consensus from the majority of our customers and the "vocal few". This is no slight on anyone, it is what it is. And, at the end of the day, we make changes on some things, on others we stand pat.

So, yeah, upgrades are a b*tch to lay out, a b*tch to manage, and you won't make everyone happy, even though you are giving them a deal. Heck, we are not competing against what other camera companies do for upgrades, we are competing against ourselves and our prior programs. Given all that, both Jim and Jarred have never wavered on making sure it happens to at least soften the blow for existing owners as the product line evolves.

Sure, I wish we could tell everyone, give us $10,000 and your old camera - and we will give you WEAPON. That, of course, assumes WEAPON costs us less than $10,000 to make when you take into account NRE, COGs, op x, etc, etc. Remember, we develop all of the tech ourselves - and it ain't cheap. And the smarter-than-me engineers that develop it - they ain't cheap either...

To be frank, if we lose money on each product we ship - especially cameras, where does that leave us as a company? It leaves me updating my resume, that's what.
 
I get that people may not be excited about the XL Module. But I think it's a plus. Most people aren't aware that it also takes Redvoits, which are common. Used by itself it provides for a very lightweight camera solution, and may be a necessary option as any new side handle is likely to not take revolts. Put the Revolt expander on and run 2 revolts or allow for revolt hot swapping. If it was a V-mount that would be a drag as I'm all Anton Bauer based. I probably won't use it often, but it will be in the kit when I need it. It also provides accessory power. Which was a major issue with the seldom used quad revolt module and the potentially more useful dual module. So, a useful niche for me.
 
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