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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Challenge to Zacuto...

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Jarred why would you and Jim even bother wanting to be part of this? Zacuto sell overpriced bits for DSLR's and thats it.
Seems like bringing a sports car (RED) to a horse race track to me! Personally i find these comparisons really boring and i am sick of DSLR's and other cameras being compared to Epics, Alexa's etc

If anyone really wants to perform a proper test then why doesn't someone get all the major cameras and shoot a 5 minute scene that includes interiors, exteriors and then get the general public in a cinema and let them watch the comparisons at 4k.

This will never happen as the general public would get bored after the 3rd screening of the same 5 minutes!

Opinions are like assholes.... Everyone has one!
 
Well said, Adam, Aussie style :)

This is why I do not do subjective tests. They are complete and utter waste of everyone's time. The only test worth doing is when outcomes are well-defined, measurable, repeatable and comparable. No room for argy-bargy.
 
Pawel Achtel said:
Well said, Adam, Aussie style :)

This is why I do not do subjective tests. They are complete and utter waste of everyone's time. The only test worth doing is when outcomes are well-defined, measurable, repeatable and comparable. No room for argy-bargy.
Click to expand...

While I agree to most of this (defined/repeatable/measurable/comparable/and implicitly: open on parameters) I don't fully agree on the implication of the last statement...

shooting stills of charts under tungsten/daylight with the same optics, lights and camerasettings, does indeed give you a lot of information about the cameras.
IMHO, "practical scenes" with motion both in the cameras and subjects give you some more.
Extreme dynamics/color/contrast/inforich situations, like shooting daylight trackingshots in a forest with and without snow reflecting the sun, give me another little piece of info.
And totally distorting the cameras in both over and underexposure gives me the last little bit of "everyday" info.

There are elements like compression, motionrendering, how they clip and underxpose that I cannot fully determine from a still image from charts.
I do applaud you, if you can say otherwise!

But I have a more philosophical opposition to a few of these tests.
I mostly test to learn how to or not to use a certain tool for the best result.

Some of these tests seems more degnined to see "which is the best" which ultimately is a complex and highly subjective parameter to test for. A lot more than pure image quality comes into play.
You have factors like confidence, comfort/knowledge of workflows, what suits your infrastructure and chosen other tools and belief playing into that odd mess, and subjective "feelings" about which skintones (and other tones) are the best, which image is most gradeable etc.

I think tests like that, are fault by default.... :)

Learning = allways good

Declaring "winners" on subjective parameters = mostly stupid.

THAT said, I think it would be good to let RED be involved with a test, to show off what they think is best practice with their cameras.


Gunleik
 
Adam Eden said:
Jarred why would you and Jim even bother wanting to be part of this? Zacuto sell overpriced bits for DSLR's and thats it
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Whilst I can appreciate Jim's initial point. That statement Adam, is a bit silly and unwarranted.
 
As resolution is one of the differences between the cameras, I don't understand why each camera cannot be screened in their own best resolution? It's as worthy a comparison as any other factor and another aspect to decide whether you like or not.
 
Mark Warren said:
As resolution is one of the differences between the cameras, I don't understand why each camera cannot be screened in their own best resolution? It's as worthy a comparison as any other factor and another aspect to decide whether you like or not.
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Hm... There are two ways to look at this

1. Common practical deliveryformat (usually being 2k or 1080) as a practical uniform delivery parameter.
And that's fine with me, as I am involved in no productions that demand 4k delivery. The added resolution of the Epic will still shine when downsampled.

At the very least, I'd like to see both the 1080 and the 4k result, as that would give me the most practical info...
But I have to admit that the + 3k rez of the Epic is my very least important factor for choosing it for other than stills, and I would sure hope RED would focus more of its marketing on all the other good things with the Epic, besides its resolution...

YMMV

2. Maximum available resolution
Where it would be interesting to see a comparison between the F65 and the Epic.

You have some added values with Epic:
Stills
Compression
Framerates

independently of what the others have to offer.
 
Jannard said:
We'd love to participate in your test. But going to a race where you have to ride the brakes isn't much fun. Here's what we suggest.

Do your 1080P or 2K finish. But also do a 4K finish. 4K is the future... and the future is now. Why not test what is... not what was. Up-rez where necessary. People need to know what to expect when 4K delivery options happen (like now). Down-rez the higher resolution cameras to 4K. Look forward. Studios are preparing to re-release old movies shot on film with 4K scans. Show what an image will look like on a 60' screen. Everyone needs to know what their original is capable of... starting with tests like these.

Pick your (Zacuto chosen) team to do the post. But also give each manufacturer their own footage to get processed under their control. That is likely to produce the best results and motivate the companies to show the best from their cameras. No excuses. For example, will RED footage be kept R3D all the way through? And if so... by whom?

How about it Zacuto? Let's do this.

Jim
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Jim,

if ZACUTO can't... for the first time EVER against all my believes of doing vs. that as it is just so obvious whom the POWER of the best images belongs to, (EPIC) I will organize such test.


Place of shoot ROME.

Cameras:

RED EPIC

SONY 65

ARRI ALEXA

CANON 1D C (if prototype available)

CANON C300 or C500 (if prototype available)

CANON 5D III

And any other camera with PL mount, that can mount the SAME LENSES.

Shoot to be done in STUDIO under continuos and controlled lighting.

Finish done in both 1080P downsizing the rez of Epic and ALexa and any other camera to it.

Finish in 4K Upsizing the image rez of the Alexa and other cameras to 4K.


Material to be sent to each Manufacturer's chosen Post facility to deliver the finished product. OR Sent to a chosen IMPARTIAL Post facility of trust to do the finish for all cameras.


Final material viewed ata CINEMA facility with a qualified 4K projection system.


Material shot would be FASHION, to show a vast gamma of colors and Skin tones, as well as a piece of Still Life, to show precision and critical focused shots of high contrast images and be able to perfectly repeat each shot.


I have truly tired of the position ALexa has fraudulently gotten itself in the European market, the camera is a great camera but ABSOLUTELY A WRONG CHOICE FOR CINEMA!!

As far as the other 1080P contenders, well, they really needs ot see how ridiculous 1080p footage looks Upsized to fit the rez of a 4K image... ;)


BTW, for the record, which i think every one knows this, Zacuto shot outs aren't really to test cameras but to showcase that to their idea, any one with any camera despite of resolution or capacity, in the needs of a good DP will produce great images and make your film, which is true of course, however the same good DP with the EPIC in hands will blow the S&^$%# out of any other camera in the mist, leaving every one else's camera footage to be viewed as murky soft material, except the Sony 65... ;)
 
Somehow, Ketch - I think it is as interesting to look at the mistakes of these tests as the results. When experienced people can do these mistakes, everyone can, and that would probably explain a lot of odd results other places....

Very few productions can follow your suggested workflow.
And thus it is not as interesting to see, in some ways.

But that's just me I guess...

Edit:
Actually, I find myself choosing and arguing (successfully) for RED in a lot of situations. Resolution is never the main reason it has been chosen.

I love and dig the resolution, but there are other qualities with the system that I find that sells it. That is like here and now and in the situations I work.

Of course, Ketch, You do a lot more cinema than me, I guess!

Cheers!
 
Good Luck Ketch, Can't wait
 
Not a lot of people here seem to be impressed with Zacuto's test of last year. I take the opposite view: it showed how much better technically RED's oldest available movie camera is to the DSLRs with built-in video cameras. And it showed how much better value for money it is than the other digital movie cameras. Unless of course you weren't paying attention.

I came away cringing at what I call the DSLR delusion. Film's a different story though... :-P

Phil Holland said:
What's 1080p?

Oh yeah. The past.
Click to expand...

Why do you hate smart phones? Don't be a hater, man. Don't be a hater.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Somehow, Ketch - I think it is as interesting to look at the mistakes of these tests as the results. When experienced people can do these mistakes, everyone can, and that would probably explain a lot of odd results other places....

Very few productions can follow your suggested workflow.
And thus it is not as interesting to see, in some ways.

But that's just me I guess...

Edit:
Actually, I find myself choosing and arguing (successfully) for RED in a lot of situations. Resolution is never the main reason it has been chosen.

I love and dig the resolution, but there are other qualities with the system that I find that sells it. That is like here and now and in the situations I work.

Of course, Ketch, You do a lot more cinema than me, I guess!

Cheers!
Click to expand...

Correct Gunleik, resolution is never why Alexa is chosen over EPIC of course, that would be ridiculous... ;)

But what is chosen for is because it is strongly advertised as giving a better image, with better skin tones, and easier to handle on set and in post, which is all an entire bunch of oversold crap!!

Here in Italy I see 9 out of 10 projects go to Alexa, all do to ignorance and the pushing of a product which is far inferior to the one pushed against, yet Directors, Producers and corporation accept the BS told to them as even tests done are manufactured to make the EPIC fail, but it wasn't so when I was part of this tests, the EPIC always was the chosen cameras, even in the Warsaw shoot out of Alexa which their DP was Bias to, and our Epic, the company then purchased 3 Epic cameras... ;)

What is needed IMO and actually I'm working on that too, with a soon to be shoot and released video, is a teaching of a complete camera setting up to light expose and shoot and take to post on EPIC, so that people really see how easy it is and how much greater the images that come out of EPIC really are.

Problem with me is that I'm so dam busy I can't begin to tell you, and to top it off I always find myself with ton of footage and no EDITOR/COLORISt available to do the post the way I want, and for this reason I have failed miserably to Jarred and this community in not been able to provide footage of my tests and shoots I have done most recently since I have been back to Italy, but this will also change soon as I'm getting set up in preparation of our first Movie for this summer, and the capacity ot do post in full 4K with the very best is coming... ;)


Kwan Khan said:
Good Luck Ketch, Can't wait
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Thanks Kwan, but I'm not actually already doing this, is merely a proposal to do it if Zacuto wan't, as I agree with Jim in his position were a simple shoot out is not in off to just show that any camera can be okay to shoot something good, what matters in today's world and tomorrow's distribution is been able to actually show what you have captured, and if Zacuto is happy to do so on the WEB, kudos to them, I'm not, I want to see it in full glory on the biggest screen in full 4K, and be able to download what ever resolution I can play at home and see for myself too what is what.
 
What I meant was that resolution is never the reason RED is chosen over Alexa in the contexts I work. Epic has som much other and presently relevant stuff going for it, that the "resolution" and "future proof" arguments, that frankly pisses off a lot of people and make them go deaf and blind, aren't the most practically relevant ones.

And with all the options for post for RED, it is good to see how people go "wrong" without getting all worked up.

Very interesting to see Ian re-confirm that they go DPX, for example. Which to me makes total sense if you have the infrastructure at hand to handle it.

There is no ultimately wrong way, as long as the way you choose give the expected or better result.

And to me - these days - I find I spend a lot more time on promoting easy, low ´bandwith, safe and fast, than 5k, what to do to keep all DR intact etc etc etc.

Cheers and all the best!

G
 
Why allow Zucato to drive the boat? Do your own comparison test and show the results. I would personally like to see the results delivered just like you stated but I would also like to see comparisons delivered in 1080, 2K, and 4K and see what makes sense in every delivery.
 
I have some, but have so far landed on not publishing, because people get so worked up about winners and not practical use.

It is part of my job to test cameras...
 
I really hope RED go on the world tour they talked about i so much want to see the camera as it was ment to be seen......I mite be at the bottom of the professional barrel so to speak but im sure Jackson & Scott etc didn't make any decision based on someone else's comparison.

EDIT: Not you Gunleik i have a lot of respect for your knowledge.
 
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