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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Challenge to Zacuto...

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Jannard

Jannard

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We'd love to participate in your test. But going to a race where you have to ride the brakes isn't much fun. Here's what we suggest.

Do your 1080P or 2K finish. But also do a 4K finish. 4K is the future... and the future is now. Why not test what is... not what was. Up-rez where necessary. People need to know what to expect when 4K delivery options happen (like now). Down-rez the higher resolution cameras to 4K. Look forward. Studios are preparing to re-release old movies shot on film with 4K scans. Show what an image will look like on a 60' screen. Everyone needs to know what their original is capable of... starting with tests like these.

Pick your (Zacuto chosen) team to do the post. But also give each manufacturer their own footage to get processed under their control. That is likely to produce the best results and motivate the companies to show the best from their cameras. No excuses. For example, will RED footage be kept R3D all the way through? And if so... by whom?

How about it Zacuto? Let's do this.

Jim
 
Zucato asked me to do the RED EPIC part of this test, Which I was thankful.... I couldn't because of my busy schedules. My same question to them also was, It's to be a 4k Projection finish right? ... As I did not think it fair to down convert RED EPICS images by more than half to compete against a bunch of HD cameras. As this was not fair assessment of the RED cameras full potential.

The reply was, We do not have a 4k projector and were not sure if they had the facilities to do 4k Post... ? and the fellow that made contact could not answer if we could stay R3D all the way to the final... So flawed post as well.

So at the end of the day, You never see RED EPIC footage as it really is, meaning the ZUCATO test is instantly flawed...

Pity, because I know the mean well...
 
maybe if you provided them with a 4K display system or have the final showcased at Red Studio, I can't imagine Zacuto rejecting that offer:-P
 
This could turn out to be AMAZING and very helpful for everyone.

I really hope this goes well in all efforts and everyones commitment from all areas.
 
I'd be happy to do the tests.
I've got SFR plus charts, I've got IMATEST 3.8, I'm happy to do what would probably be the first proper scientific test resulting with MTF charts for each camera, but also can measure the dynamic range and other characteristics. All I need is the cameras to compare to. I have two Epics already :rolleyes:

Imatest is fully automated and repeatable test:

http://www.imatest.com/docs/sfr_instructions/

http://www.imatest.com/docs/sfr_instructions2/
 
Mark Toia said:
Zucato asked me to do the RED EPIC part of this test, Which I was thankful.... I couldn't because of my busy schedules. My same question to them also was, It's to be a 4k Projection finish right? ... As I did not think it fair to down convert RED EPICS images by more than half to compete against a bunch of HD cameras. As this was not fair assessment of the RED cameras full potential.

The reply was, We do not have a 4k projector and were not sure if they had the facilities to do 4k Post... ? and the fellow that made contact could not answer if we could stay R3D all the way to the final... So flawed post as well.

So at the end of the day, You never see RED EPIC footage as it really is, meaning the ZUCATO test is instantly flawed...

Pity, because I know the mean well...
Click to expand...


Sounds like a poor attempt at testing if they're not even trying to see the full potential of the camera. Shame on them.
 
Well Jim,

Atleast we should appreciate Zacuto for taking this initiative to do so. Lets their result come then this post may have relevance if the fail in what you mentioned about 4K & 2K from 4K & R3D till entire post production and so on...

Hope at least one of your representatives will be their on May 9 in Hollywood DI Theatre for what they have done.
 
Mark Toia said:
...It's to be a 4k Projection finish right? ... As I did not think it fair to down convert RED EPICS images by more than half to compete against a bunch of HD cameras. As this was not fair assessment of the RED cameras full potential...
Click to expand...

Mark, you do not need any of that. All you need is to shoot SFR charts and shoot it with each camera (one frame). All the rest is automated image analysis that results in comparable MTF graphs for each system. It's pretty easy workflow. No need to "finish the footage" no need for playback or projection.

We can do a test that is objective, not subjective - for a change :beer:
 
Red could always sponsor a independent camera shootout.
 
Mark Toia said:
Zucato asked me to do the RED EPIC part of this test, Which I was thankful.... I couldn't because of my busy schedules. My same question to them also was, It's to be a 4k Projection finish right? ... As I did not think it fair to down convert RED EPICS images by more than half to compete against a bunch of HD cameras. As this was not fair assessment of the RED cameras full potential.

The reply was, We do not have a 4k projector and were not sure if they had the facilities to do 4k Post... ? and the fellow that made contact could not answer if we could stay R3D all the way to the final... So flawed post as well.

So at the end of the day, You never see RED EPIC footage as it really is, meaning the ZUCATO test is instantly flawed...

Pity, because I know the mean well...
Click to expand...


There have been many conspiracy theories over the years on our non-involvement with the Zacuto tests.. and honestly there was never any ill-will... we just had the same experience as it sounds like you have had which is why we have declined. If it is too late then perhaps this year is not the year... but hopefully next.

We will been waiting... Pretty much every post workflow including the "free" ones are 4K ready and most of those let you keep it RAW till the end. That's not really an excuse anymore.
 
Jarred Land said:
There have been many conspiracy theories over the years on our non-involvement with the Zacuto tests.. and honestly there was never any ill-will... we just had the same experience as it sounds like you have had which is why we have declined. If it is too late then perhaps this year is not the year... but hopefully next.

We will been waiting... Pretty much every post workflow including the "free" ones are 4K ready and most of those let you keep it RAW till the end. That's not really an excuse anymore.
Click to expand...


I believe the shootout was finished at FILMWORKERS CLUB in Chicago. They do much of the grading and post for the Chicago market and have more equipment than anyone in town. They do have the capability to do 4K (via base light) however it is a fairly recent thing. I shot 5K Epic last summer and the finish was quite literally hell as Baselight (or Filmworkers) had not updated to r3D support. To my knowledge there is not a 4k projector viewing room in Chicago either, so I don't think its really a conspiracy.

Chicago is a big ad market, but I have to say the facilities can be very Cap'n Crunch sometimes, because there is little to no theatrical distribution here the post facilities are all firmly rooted in 2K and under.
 
The shootouts have always really bothered me. Always felt less like science than like marketing... and I always felt there was some bias against RED.

I could be dead wrong- I obviously wasn't there, but there are just too many variables and seemingly arbitrary choices at play for me to feel like I can walk away with any fair differentiation from the results as they were presented. Too much opportunity for bias.

I think that the shootouts are a really intriguing opportunity for education, but I dont think they have yet reached their full potential.
 
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