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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Canon Lenses ok for documentary or RPP?

Michael,
We definitely use quite similar kits (Epic, Canon lenses, GoPro, lightweight tripod) because obviously that's what gives us a combination of great mobility and excellent images in a mobile documentary scenario. BTW the documentary I'm working on right now in the Caribbean isn't strictly a wildlife doc, but it has elements of wildlife, adventure travel, alternative sports, cultures, and tons of interviews - thus the use of the Canon XF 100 for certain shot sequences (general mobile shots, interviews, etc.). The XF100 and XF300 give me a small, portable EFP style camera that shoots 1080p at 50Mbs, in a 4:2:2 color space - the parameters accepted as the threshold of "broadcast quality" by most TV networks. This documentary is destined for a 1080 delivery for TV broadcast.

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As we know, 35mm still lenses are designed to resolve crisp images from CMOS sensors - not surprising that using those same lenses on Epic (or Red One), which is obviously a CMOS sensor, generates crisp images. I don't have the MTF data in front of me, but after almost six years of personal field use of 35mm still lenses on Red One and three years of using them on Epic, I'll say that top-level 35mm still lenses used correctly on Epic generate incredibly crisp and dynamic images - IMO easily equal to many (if not most) of the hyper-expensive and heavy (thus immobile) cine lenses. 35mm still lenses must be chosen carefully because some individual lenses within any given model can be sub-standard. But if you choose carefully and get a good one, and are willing to operate them as you would on a DSLR (no FF, MB, etc.), they give you a great image on Epic - while being way affordable, and incredibly mobile too because of their small size and relatively light weight for their focal lengths.

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Nikon lenses? They work great on Red One and Epic and generate incredibly good images. On Red One at one point I was using 27 different Nikon lenses. Some of them were modern (14-24, 24-70, 80-200), and some of them were older AIS lenses (50-300). When I can get around to it I'll get the Red Nikon Titanium mount for Epic so I can use my Nikon lenses when I want that "look" from the images. Nikon lenses seem to generate a bit "cooler" (in temperature and texture) look on Red cameras than Canon lenses, which generate a bit "warmer image. I like both - its like apples and oranges. My DSLR system is Canon, and Red made the Canon mount for Epic first, thus my ongoing use of my Canon lenses on Epic.

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I have the Sigma 150-500. If you get a good one it can generate some very good images on a DSLR or Red camera. Perhaps its just my individual lens, but I find it good out to around 425mm, but softer on out to 500mm. That said, if you know the limitations of the lens, and you get a good one, it can be a very good wildlife and sports lens on Epic. I use the Sigma 120-300 f2.8 lens more than the 150-500 f5-6.3 because the 120-300 is more crisp, faster, and if I need longer focal length I add in a 1.4x extender, which gives me a 168-420mm f4 zoom. The 120-300 (6.5 lb) is slightly heavier than the 150-500 (4.2 lb).

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James,
I agree on the Canon 150-600. I was the first one to use one of those on Red One (August 2007, on my Red One SN 0008), and in fact the first to use one on an Epic (February 2011, on me & Ketch's Epic M SN 0008). Mine is a stock 150-600, except it has a Century PL mount conversion. On both Red One and Epic that lens generates incredibly good images. The stock lens weighs just over 9 pounds. Its a great wildlife and sports lens - exactly what it was designed for in the late '80's. Obviously the 150-600 is a very rare lens, extremely hard to find - thus I didn't include it in my original post.

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I was one of the very first pioneers of shooting mobile EFP style with Red cameras - especially documentaries - and though our company (Golden Gate 3D) now does lots of 3D production, we still do lots of mobile 2D documentary (mobile EFP) style productions - and they're still my personal favorite type of production. There's just something that buzzes me about being out there by myself (or with a small crew), with a small mobile rig getting dynamic images - and with Red cameras that level of mobility calls for 35mm still lenses, and for documentaries most often it calls for 35mm still zooms, not primes. Modern top-level 35mm still zooms generate images on a par with primes, but give you the ability to quickly re-frame and nail the shots - something which is absolutely critical for almost all genres of documentaries.
 
Quite a compelling argument! F***ing love that picture!

One thing I get from these forums are people are so hung up on technical data. CP L primes are not as Nikon, or you need PL etc, these lenses are better then these etc.. It's exhausting to keep up on it. I like a philosophy of one of the greatest wildlife filmmakers Alan Root. A couple of years ago I was with him on a capture of animals (he was flying his helicopter in the capture) and I asked him about lens and f-stops etc, and how much he knew of the technical side of things (I noticed he seemed not to be a technical guy), his response, I knew nothing of f-stops, lenses etc, I knew how to get good images, and tell great stories. At the end of the day all of these quality lenses are within what 2% of each other. I personally don't care about getting that 1%, I'd rather get 100% in the thing I'm capturing. Great moments captured are what it's about, and great moment is not going to matter at all if it is 1% sharper, or color is slightly better on Alexia over red. At the end of the day, less then 1% of those seeing you finished work have the knowledge to notice anything different.

A pretty picture will tell you a hundred times more things in emotion then a technical chart will.

Not my photo, but completes my argument.

tumblr_mdwvu0nuId1qbohx5o1_1280.jpg
 
I have tested today both Red Primes and Canon lenses.
The Canon lenses were very good for super quick documentary work where you are hand held most of the time. They have several problems however
- if you need to do accurate focus it's MUCH MUCH harder than with the Red Primes. If you just move the focus 1mm it will really change the distance of the focus. I really didn't like this. It works fine if you have a small apperture like 20 or so of course.
- It is messy to switch from PL to Canon mount. Took me maybe 15 minutes to switch the first time and it requires a table. I havent done this so many times so I'm sure you guys can do it faster. What took time is
1) unscrewing the mount and screwing on the canon one.
2) adjusting the rods, because they lenses are so short compared to the pl
3) adjusting the follow focus so that it's further back and the adjust the arm since the lenses are so thin
4) adjust the matte box so it is in the right place. For the wide lenses you may have to take them off.
Switching a pl lens takes me 30 seconds in comparison. I can probably cut down the time to 5 minutes for switching mounts. Any ideas on how to make it faster or more flexible? My first thought would be to have more pl lenses. What I'm missing the most are pl zooms.

The thing that worked good with the canon lenses was.
- Possible to do hand held. The RPP will kill me hand held but 100 macro or similar could be held for an hour or so.
- The stabilizer in the canon really helps
- once again focusing is harder.
- other problems I know we will have is chromatic aberration. Around bright areas I remember that the 35mm f1.4 can have 7 pixels of purple fringing when it's wide open. The RPP 35 has almost nothing in comparison.

Oh and by the way today we have been around one of the most rare cat animals in the world... ;)
Any more ideas are of course welcome :D
/Andreas
 
One thing I get from these forums are people are so hung up on technical data. CP L primes are not as Nikon, or you need PL etc, these lenses are better then these etc.. It's exhausting to keep up on it. I like a philosophy of one of the greatest wildlife filmmakers Alan Root. A couple of years ago I was with him on a capture of animals (he was flying his helicopter in the capture) and I asked him about lens and f-stops etc, and how much he knew of the technical side of things (I noticed he seemed not to be a technical guy), his response, I knew nothing of f-stops, lenses etc, I knew how to get good images, and tell great stories. At the end of the day all of these quality lenses are within what 2% of each other. I personally don't care about getting that 1%, I'd rather get 100% in the thing I'm capturing. Great moments captured are what it's about, and great moment is not going to matter at all if it is 1% sharper, or color is slightly better on Alexia over red. At the end of the day, less then 1% of those seeing you finished work have the knowledge to notice anything different.

Of course story is the most important, and of course a good photographer can tell a story with whatever gear is around. Alan Root had the fortune to live in one of the most photogenic places in the world, and has done very well with it. What's that got to do with this discussion? This is a technical forum, shared by people trying to get the best images they can. As hard as I work to capture special images, I want the 1%, because I care, even if the audience does not.
 
Simple solution

Simple solution

I have tested today both Red Primes and Canon lenses.
The Canon lenses were very good for super quick documentary work where you are hand held most of the time. They have several problems however
- if you need to do accurate focus it's MUCH MUCH harder than with the Red Primes. If you just move the focus 1mm it will really change the distance of the focus. I really didn't like this. It works fine if you have a small apperture like 20 or so of course.
- It is messy to switch from PL to Canon mount. Took me maybe 15 minutes to switch the first time and it requires a table. I havent done this so many times so I'm sure you guys can do it faster. What took time is
1) unscrewing the mount and screwing on the canon one.
2) adjusting the rods, because they lenses are so short compared to the pl
3) adjusting the follow focus so that it's further back and the adjust the arm since the lenses are so thin
4) adjust the matte box so it is in the right place. For the wide lenses you may have to take them off.
Switching a pl lens takes me 30 seconds in comparison. I can probably cut down the time to 5 minutes for switching mounts. Any ideas on how to make it faster or more flexible? My first thought would be to have more pl lenses. What I'm missing the most are pl zooms.

The thing that worked good with the canon lenses was.
- Possible to do hand held. The RPP will kill me hand held but 100 macro or similar could be held for an hour or so.
- The stabilizer in the canon really helps
- once again focusing is harder.
- other problems I know we will have is chromatic aberration. Around bright areas I remember that the 35mm f1.4 can have 7 pixels of purple fringing when it's wide open. The RPP 35 has almost nothing in comparison.

Oh and by the way today we have been around one of the most rare cat animals in the world... ;)
Any more ideas are of course welcome :D
/Andreas
Optitron solves most focusing problems with100% repeatable expanded travel, IS is active, mount is solid with positive locking mechanism.
no more need to switch to PL.....:yesnod:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWhB5BvisDE
 
I agree James.
This forum revolves around people who shoot with a 4K camera. Recently 4K became much more real, as the very unforgiving 4K TV sets are entering the market.
So there is just one problem:
Getting genuine 4K is rather tricky. Focusing is hard. Much harder that HD, especially if you are running open lenses.


Of course story is the most important, and of course a good photographer can tell a story with whatever gear is around. Alan Root had the fortune to live in one of the most photogenic places in the world, and has done very well with it. What's that got to do with this discussion? This is a technical forum, shared by people trying to get the best images they can. As hard as I work to capture special images, I want the 1%, because I care, even if the audience does not.
 
About $3500 for the wired version ready to shoot. We are releasing the wireless receiver soon
We are also planning release S/W to control Fuji Cabrio servos, and another receiver for two motor control for PL lenses.
Nikon mount (upgrade) coming as well.... Getting busy...
 
I have tested today both Red Primes and Canon lenses.
The Canon lenses were very good for super quick documentary work where you are hand held most of the time. They have several problems however
- if you need to do accurate focus it's MUCH MUCH harder than with the Red Primes. If you just move the focus 1mm it will really change the distance of the focus. I really didn't like this. It works fine if you have a small apperture like 20 or so of course.
- It is messy to switch from PL to Canon mount. Took me maybe 15 minutes to switch the first time and it requires a table. I havent done this so many times so I'm sure you guys can do it faster. What took time is
1) unscrewing the mount and screwing on the canon one.
2) adjusting the rods, because they lenses are so short compared to the pl
3) adjusting the follow focus so that it's further back and the adjust the arm since the lenses are so thin
4) adjust the matte box so it is in the right place. For the wide lenses you may have to take them off.
Switching a pl lens takes me 30 seconds in comparison. I can probably cut down the time to 5 minutes for switching mounts. Any ideas on how to make it faster or more flexible? My first thought would be to have more pl lenses. What I'm missing the most are pl zooms.

The thing that worked good with the canon lenses was.
- Possible to do hand held. The RPP will kill me hand held but 100 macro or similar could be held for an hour or so.
- The stabilizer in the canon really helps
- once again focusing is harder.
- other problems I know we will have is chromatic aberration. Around bright areas I remember that the 35mm f1.4 can have 7 pixels of purple fringing when it's wide open. The RPP 35 has almost nothing in comparison.

Oh and by the way today we have been around one of the most rare cat animals in the world... ;)
Any more ideas are of course welcome :D
/Andreas

You should have gone for FD's, much better focus swings and build than the EF's, and they are available at a fifth of the price. But there is a very good trick that I think works well even on the much more sensitive EF lenses. Go wide open and then tap on the histogram to get to the "RAW", "OFF", "FOCUS" etc menu and select "focus" then you can get very good accuracy using the touchscreen and pulling focus back and forth to see where the "on screen sharpening" kicks in. I find that to be the best way to pull focus when working without a tape measure and at stress full situation when there is no time to pinch in on the frame to set focus and such. The auto focus on EF I find hard to work with.
 
Lensing for the modern shooter

Lensing for the modern shooter

Premium quality (Canon L, Nikon G, etc) primes and zooms designed for shooting stills can often provide motion shooters with excellent options that offer less weight, less size and less cost. However, there are compromises: trickier focus pulls, breathing, zooms often not par focal, telescoping barrels, sample variance, durability, build quality, etc. Ultimately stills lenses were not designed for motion shooting requirements, just as traditional cine lenses were not designed for high mobility, owner/ops and solo shooting.

IMO the best combo of ergonomics, features, performance, etc for shooting motion content in a wide variety of situations is the good old B4 mount ENG/EFP zoom lens. Sadly they were designed for 3 smaller sensors. There are adapters but you give up a couple of stops and good luck resolving 4K (Zeiss Digi-zoom maybe?).

The Fujinon Cabrio 19-90 PL zoom is the first of what I hope will be a new generation of lensing options for the modern motion shooter. RED was working on a fixed 8:1 zoom for a Scarlet variant at one point, though that's long abandoned (at least as far as we know), but the concept has value. Looking at industry trends, it sure seems like the market for lenses designed for high resolution large single sensor motion cameras has grown to where enough units could be sold to make a viable business case.

This is my plea for the lens manufacturers to offer a broad range of zooms and primes designed for modern motion shooters across a spectrum of price points. Zoom servos, focus assist tech appropriate for motion, optical precision, build quality, image stabilization, look, cost and all the other usual metrics should delineate the marketplace easily enough. I maintain that a 10:1 zoom, T3.2, able to resolve 4K, under 10 pounds, operational characteristics similar to a B4 ENG lens could be brought to market for under $15,000 USD if the manufacturer had a reasonable expectation of being able to sell at least 10,000 of them worldwide. Who's in?

Cheers #19

BTW - I happen to be the very happy current owner of Gibby's 150-600 T5.6 Canon PL zoom (Century re-house) - considering the IQ and the reach its a 9 pound wonder.
 
When I saw how well my Canon glass looked on a 152" 4K monitor, that was enough to convince me, along with Mark's outstanding work and comments. Sold...
 
Yes the Image quality is there and with the OptiTron most drawbacks are eliminated. Add to that the IS, Simple one wire (or wireless) hookup, , low cost , very lightweight setup and this is a winning combo for a lot of mobile productions, wildlife, docu, etc....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWhB5BvisDE
 
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