Canon Lens Set

[Tom Lowe]

The Nikon 14-24 is fabulous. You can get Canon EF adapters for it, but if you are getting an Epic with an EF mount, you might want to be able to use the electronic features of a lens, and the Nikon G 14-24 adapters are strictly manual, not electronic.

In other words, you would not be able to use the REDMOTE to control a Nikon lens on a Canon mount.

 

[Paul Leeming]

Great thread!

One note as a previous owner of the beautiful EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM lens: it is optically gorgeous but the zoom mechanics do leave something to be desired when used on a Red.

I sold it when I moved to full frame photography BTW, not because of that issue (which is minor unless you want to zoom while rolling).

It also sounds like I really need to get a hold of the EF70-200mm f/2.8L MkII IS USM lens Tom!! And I love my MkI version!!

My picks for a cinema narrative set would be as follows:

EF14mm f/2.8L USM
EF24mm f/1.4L II USM
EF35mm f/1.4L USM
EF50mm f/1.2L USM
EF85mm f/1.2L II USM
EF135mm f/2L USM
EF200mm f/2.8L II USM

That's all primes though - for flexibility in zooms I'd go with the following:

EF16-35mm f/2.8L II USM
EF24-70mm f/2.8L USM (fingers crossed Canon releases a MkII IS version of this lens soon!)
EF70-200mm f/2.8L II IS USM

Constant f2.8 aperture across the range which is more than sufficient for all but the most low light situations.

As it is, I usually stop down to f2.8 or f4 on my primes for sharpness and ease-of-focus-pulling. Mysterium-X is a phenomenal sensor on the Red One and it's only going to get even cleaner with the Epic's 16bit pathway!

HTH

Paul

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

I have never used IS on anything, and cannot imagine wanting to do so for our shooting. If I want a hand-held look, it would just defeat the purpose (fighting against it). If I was up on sticks, what good would it do me? Again, we don't do stills (or docs or commercials or anything else). We're strictly a RED/features shop.

But that is one very nice shot of the deer, Tom. . . very nice. But that lens is just so darn slow. Maybe I just need a bigger light kit (which, given what we have, seems unlikely). I think what I really need is just a different style of shooting or a Canon DSLR to go play with!

Nah. I think I'll wait for my Stage 3 Epic.



Thanks, guys.

Stephen

 

[Tim Lüdin]

Hi guys. I'm with Tom on this one also. The new 70-200 is a killer lens.
As sharp as hell with a very good autofocus performance. The 14-24 nikon realy smokes all lenses in that range including the primes. This is the uber lens.

Stephen you are right, the 130 f2 is razer. I own and love it. I'm also luky to have one that works with my RED. No image shift an such.
I use the Birger Mount a lot and it works just fine.

So that leaves me with the most important question for most of us.
What about the RED Pro Mote. Is it ready, when will it be ready?
I really really hope the thing will be there with the first big Epic batch.
I own just about every Canon L-lens up to 200mm. The RED Promote would solve all my lens problems in a second. I would like to buy the new RED automatic Lenses but we all kinda know, that we wont see any let's say for a long time to come. No offense. :ihih:

It also would make things easier for RED to have it ready right at the start of Epic. Nobody wants to buy a REDmote because the Promote isn't ready and later sell the REDmote and ...you all know what I mean. And everybody will ask Jim to make specials for not getting the Promote at first and the make special trad-ins etc etc.

So the RED Promote will be the greatest thing since hot cakes and it will also sell like them.

So Jarred, how far is the Promote in your development? Could you give us some infos? :thumbup:

With best regards

Tim

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Just want to add a vote to the 24-70mm f/2.8L being only great to OK. There is a lot of room for improvement. Probably like the new and prior 70-200mm. I was expecting much more, but then again it is one of the more affordable f/2.8 L zooms.

 

[Julio Quintana]

Julio and I just worked on a project, however, that was nearly 100% wide-angle, deep focus. So we all come from different points of view.

That particular director has had a pretty profound influence on me, and I now find myself wanting to shoot everything on an 18 or 21mm Master Prime! But I would settle for a sharp, fast 18mm Canon if one exists.

I agree with Stephen that f2.8 is just too slow for a lot of night work. There's nothing more frustrating than wanting to shoot a wide shot of a street at night, but you have to use a 50mm because it's too dark. So I guess that means I'm leaning more towards primes. We'll see.

 

[Thomas Church]

Instead of getting a truckload of Canon L Prime Glass I'd rather get a RED 17-50, personally.

 

[Tom Lowe]

That particular director has had a pretty profound influence on me, and I now find myself wanting to shoot everything on an 18 or 21mm Master Prime! But I would settle for a sharp, fast 18mm Canon if one exists.

I agree with Stephen that f2.8 is just too slow for a lot of night work. There's nothing more frustrating than wanting to shoot a wide shot of a street at night, but you have to use a 50mm because it's too dark. So I guess that means I'm leaning more towards primes. We'll see.

To me, this is why I am hopeful that the EOS and PL mounts can truly be changed "in the field" without too much trouble. When it comes to wide-angle, fast lenses, there simply aren't any in the mainstream Canon and Nikon world. My idea is to have both mounts, and use PL glass for super-wide, fast lenses. Maybe just get one, like a 14mm MP, for example.

Trouble is, that one prime will cost more than the entire Canon lens lineup.

 

[Julio Quintana]

Instead of getting a truckload of Canon L Prime Glass I'd rather get a RED 17-50, personally.

I would LOVE to buy the RED 17-50. In fact, my original plan was to buy the whole RED Pro Prime set. But these are the two options as I see them:

RED/PL Lens Package - $26,300
Duclos 11-16mm f2.8 PL Mount_______$3,500
RED PP 18mm f1.9 w/ set discount_____$3,800
RED PP Set (25, 35, 50, 85, 100)______$19,000

Pros-
1. Pro quality focus gears and markings
2. Uniform f-stop and (mostly) uniform size
3. 18mm available
4. They look bad ass (that's worth something)

Cons-
1. Big and heavy
2. More than twice the cost of Canon
3. No full frame (Monstro) coverage
4. No electronic mount control (touch focus, iris, etc.)

Canon Lens Package - $9700 (this includes $250/lens for the Duclos Cine-Mod)
Tokina 11-16mm f2.8_______$850
Canon 24mm f1.4L II_______$2050
Canon 35mm f1.4L_________$1650
Canon 50mm f1.2L_________$1850
Canon 85mm f1.2L II_______$2050
Canon 135mm f2__________$1250

Pros-
1. Affordable
2. Small and light weight
3. Full frame coverage for future RED brains
4. Electronic mount control using Redmote or touch screen
5. Faster f-stop in most cases (f1.4 vs. f1.9)
6. Can be rented out as "B-Cam" lenses for 5D/7D (ugh...)

Cons-
1. Completely unusable focus marks
2. No 18mm prime (that's huge for me)
3. Extremely inconsistent sizes and slightly varying f-stops

That's pretty much all I can think of. For my uses, the Canon's seem to prevail after looking at this list. But if someone needs professional focus marks no matter what, than all the other points are irrelevant and the RED lenses are the better choice. I'd love to hear if someone else has anything to add to these lists.

Julio

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I don't like the idea of having to shoot multiple setups in narrative with mix-matched lenses, because in the end you either get mix-matched looking shots or a bigger bill from coloring. Most likely a combination of the two, unless you have the right artist and/or budget. Even shooting with certain "great" sets of still primes will be tricky. I am not saying this is the Canon prime case as I have never shot with Canon primes yet.

When you are inter-cutting like you do in narrative saving on optics is a big liability. I know DITs can set up looks for each lens to compensate a bit in the metadata, especially if shooting RAW. But you are also spending money on rentals right there for him to have everything at his disposal. They can match based on actual footage, but charts and other apples to apples tests make matching faster, easier and more accurate. And you will still need to tweak in post in certain situations, or at least wonder if something you are seeing is from the lens or something else.

I see spending on top-shelf primes as a smart investment, very smart. It saves time and money once you hit a certain budget sweet-spot. You also need to factor in the ability to shoot at wider apertures while still getting a sharp and contrasty image to the sensor, which in certain situations will end up saving you piles of money on G&E, and schedule which translates to a massively wise investment.

0.02

 

[Julio Quintana]

As a glass connoisseur just get the RPPs and thank everyone later :001_smile:

There is really nothing else close in this price range, specially if you like fast modern lenses that are well supported by the vendor.

Either that or get Master Primes or Leica Summilux-C and be done with it.

RPPs are beautiful lenses and you will love them as your own children. I don't own them, but had a pleasure to use them. Yes, Master Primes are nicer (faster, sharper, less distortion, better build, etc..), but not that much nicer. Jim Hare and I used both on the same shoot and they cut nicely. You'd be hard pressed to tell which one was which.

And then there are posts like these that make me feel crazy for wanting to put still glass on the best camera ever created :willy_nilly:. Can somebody who has worked with both weigh in on the RPP vs. Canon debate? Which are likely to rent more with a small Epic package? Are the electronic controls a huge plus on the Canon side?

 

[Tom.Wong]

breathing
contrast
fine focus
matched set (they don't produce canon lenses as "sets" on the factor line, you get them made at different times, they aren't matched as closely as a matched pl prime set in most cases)
lack of versatility on going on other cameras. PL is a relatively cheap mounting standard. electronics mounts aren't...

sheer simplicity in less electronic components? glitches do happen, as rare as anybody claims them to be.



there are a lot of reasons why people will still choose PL glass like RPP's over canon electronic lenses, both sides ultimately have amazing strengths. sharpness of a lens isn't the only factor.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

kind of strange

kind of strange

And then there are posts like these that make me feel crazy for wanting to put still glass on the best camera ever created :willy_nilly:. Can somebody who has worked with both weigh in on the RPP vs. Canon debate? Which are likely to rent more with a small Epic package? Are the electronic controls a huge plus on the Canon side?

As everyone (including manufacturers) is struggling to shave weight off cameras to the point of getting into "camera diet wars" the lenses keep getting bigger and heavier. Kind of strange really...
I personally think that short range wide zooms such as Angies or Zeiss LWZ are the way to go. smaller than primes yet replace several... The stop is not so crucial with new sensors and HDR anyway....

 

[Julio Quintana]

The stop is not so crucial with new sensors and HDR anyway....

Not to undermine your point, but people keep saying that fast lenses aren't as critical with the new sensors, but nobody talks about how much light is required to shoot at 120fps. Yes, the sensors are faster, but to really make the most of the Epic, I think we will need every bit of light we can get.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I am still thinking of the (lighter and smaller) Leica T1.4's. All that and what's going to be the sickest barrel design ever. Oh yea, and Leica glass.

:willy_nilly:

 

[Julio Quintana]

I am still thinking of the (lighter and smaller) Leica T1.4's. All that and what's going to be the sickest barrel design ever. Oh yea, and Leica glass.

:willy_nilly:

Aren't those priced somewhere between Master Primes and Ultra Primes? I'm sure they're fantastic, but if I could afford them, I definitely wouldn't be hunting for an 18mm Canon lens!

 

[paul engstrom]

In my market neither the Canon nor the RPP would be considered especially attractive rentals. Angenieux, Cooke and Zeiss -- in that order -- are the attractive rentals here.

Personally, I see the Canon and PL mounts as facilitating 2 different goals for my camera.

For features and work where actors are hitting marks I prefer PL lenses with abundant lens marks and smooth mechanics. In my opinion, still lenses, even nice ones with sophisticated electronic ff (like Birger mount) or with generous focus throws like Zeiss mechanical lenses, are inferior to their cinema brethren for the purpose of making feature films. My preferred stop for these types of projects is somewhere between T2.8 and T4 because generally speaking, faces don't look that good at T1.3 -- there are almost always focus problems that distract from the story at T1.3. As a result, there are a few really good ways to go on PL lenses right now and I think a few more viable alternatives still materializing. With the PL lenses I don't care if they wont cover a full frame sensor because the 5k S35 Epic will be an ideal narrative camera for a good number of years.

The Canon mount is a different story. For documentary work, 2nd unit shooting, commercials and pretty much any other type of shooting I can think of, the Canon mount has been AWESOME. For reasonable amounts of money I have been able to assemble a group of lenses covering me from 10mm to 600mm with excellent optics, with image stabilizers, that are lightweight, hold their resale very well, etc. etc. I've found it very easy to borrow random lenses for special circumstances with this set up too. When I get my full frame EPIC -- and eventually the 645 Epic, these still lenses and/or whatever special lenses RED makes will likely be the main lenses--because I will tend to use these cameras for the non-feature filming that I enjoy doing.

Point is: I fully intend to have both still and PL mounts and to freely swap them on my Epic. I intend to have and use PL lenses for features and to have and use still lenses for everything else.

 

[Julio Quintana]

Thank you Paul. That is actually very helpful. Maybe the best option for me is to own a good set of Canon glass for the "everything else" scenarios, and just rent PL glass when doing narrative work.

Are you RPP owners feeling that you are getting regular rentals from them? Or are most renters likely to choose a set of Super Speeds instead?

 

[paul engstrom]

Superspeeds over the RPP up here. I would think this would vary with which market you're in though.

Problem #1 was that the first RPP to hit Vancouver had mediocre quality control and therefore instantly gained a bad reputation--this after the mediocre reception of the original RED zoom lens (which wasn't a particularly nice lens for ACs). I'm under the impression the quality has improved since then.
Problem #2 is that Vancouver is inherently more conservative on cinema equipment/art than a place like LA. New things are embraced a touch slower here than down there.

You would really need to look at your own market. Personally, I wouldn't spend $40k on superspeeds. I am considering the RED primes--I really just wish that they were lighter.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Yea, they are up there with MPs and 5i's. I was thinking rental. Unfortunately they sound like they will come out in extremely low quantities so they won't be easy to get a hold of for a while even after they are out.

While not meant for motion, the Canons are amazing if you consider their price and IQ. Not trying to compare them, just wanted to point out that there will be a small, light AND fast set that will deliver top shelf IQ. At ~25k a pop, unfortunately.