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[FS: OPTICS] Canon K35 Set stolen (London)
- Thread starter Ian Gray
- Start date
Will Keir
Well-known member
BTW, were they insured?
Maybe you could add anything to "The List."
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...Insurance-Companies&highlight=List:+Insurance
Maybe you could add anything to "The List."
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...Insurance-Companies&highlight=List:+Insurance
Jack Smith
Well-known member
Sorry to hear this too. I will keep an eyes out for you.
- Thread starter
- #24
Thanks everyone. Really appreciate the show of support, kind of restores faith in humanity!
Hi Will. Yeah all of my equipment is insured with Quartz and I actually went with that insurer as a result of that thread! This is a really messy and horrible situation though and Quartz are unable to help. I can't go into massive amounts of detail as things are probably about to get even more complicated and I don't want to potentially jeopardise my position, but essentially it's looking increasingly like I'll need to take legal action to receive any kind of reimbursement for the theft.
Just to give you a quick overview of events:
A friend of mine is a freelance director and was hired by a production company to make a film (I won't mention any names). The budget of the production was incredibly tight and he asked me to effectively loan him equipment to complete the shoot. On this occasion, the equipment consisted of RED MX, Canon K35's, lights, track and dolly and a slider. He needed the kit for an entire week. I am generally reluctant to give my equipment out for discounted rates or freebies, especially on professional gigs where money is clearly being distributed in some way, but he has helped me many times and since I wasn't using my equipment I said he could use it.
The company supplied me with insurance details and I made them sign a rental agreement (Effectively a document of liability) covering the dates of the rental and this also included an inventory, listing all equipment to be hired. The equipment was picked up from my studio by their DoP (A freelancer hired for the week and someone that I happen to know well) and all parties were notified that the equipment was picked up.
The next morning I received a call explaining that the lenses had been stolen and that they had never made it to the shoot. The police were notified, statements were made, the company assured me that they had notified their insurer and would actively look to replace them. In the mean time they asked if they could continue to use the rest of my equipment. I said that would be fine, but I needed to know my lenses were being dealt with (On reflection, I really should have pushed harder on this and I'm kicking myself that I didn't). Anyway, at the end of the week my kit was returned to my studio and I was again assured that their insurer were looking into the situation. Two days later, I received an email explaining that the company were not going to help and would not contact their insurer as they did not believe they were liable as the lenses never made it to the shoot. Obviously they signed a document of liability which says otherwise, and I've tried dealing with this diplomatically by explaining that the moment equipment is hired and leaves the premises of the rental company, it becomes the responsibility of the renter (Precisely the reason insurance is needed in advance and rental agreements are signed) and also that I would not have loaned them my (rare and expensive!) equipment if there was any risk that they would not replace or repair lost, stolen or damaged equipment, but they are refusing to get involved.
Since the kit effectively went out as a rental, my insurance will not cover the theft. I'm seriously annoyed at myself for giving them the equipment, but I just never imagined they would refuse to help if something like this happened.
As it stands, I'm left with no lenses and no way of replacing them. I believe that legally and ethically I'm in the right, but the process of taking action is going to require a great deal of effort and financial investment so I'm not exactly thrilled about the prospect of taking action. What's even more frustrating is that I have several shoots booked through November which require the lenses, so if I want to go ahead with the shoots I'm going to need to hire in kit to complete the jobs, at my own expenses.
The best thing that can possibly happen at this stage are for the lenses to be found, thus saving everyone involved any further stress. Realistically, that isn't going to happen, so I have to at least take comfort from the fact that the lenses are just objects (Insanely awesome objects) and at least no one was physically hurt as a result of the theft.
Hi Will. Yeah all of my equipment is insured with Quartz and I actually went with that insurer as a result of that thread! This is a really messy and horrible situation though and Quartz are unable to help. I can't go into massive amounts of detail as things are probably about to get even more complicated and I don't want to potentially jeopardise my position, but essentially it's looking increasingly like I'll need to take legal action to receive any kind of reimbursement for the theft.
Just to give you a quick overview of events:
A friend of mine is a freelance director and was hired by a production company to make a film (I won't mention any names). The budget of the production was incredibly tight and he asked me to effectively loan him equipment to complete the shoot. On this occasion, the equipment consisted of RED MX, Canon K35's, lights, track and dolly and a slider. He needed the kit for an entire week. I am generally reluctant to give my equipment out for discounted rates or freebies, especially on professional gigs where money is clearly being distributed in some way, but he has helped me many times and since I wasn't using my equipment I said he could use it.
The company supplied me with insurance details and I made them sign a rental agreement (Effectively a document of liability) covering the dates of the rental and this also included an inventory, listing all equipment to be hired. The equipment was picked up from my studio by their DoP (A freelancer hired for the week and someone that I happen to know well) and all parties were notified that the equipment was picked up.
The next morning I received a call explaining that the lenses had been stolen and that they had never made it to the shoot. The police were notified, statements were made, the company assured me that they had notified their insurer and would actively look to replace them. In the mean time they asked if they could continue to use the rest of my equipment. I said that would be fine, but I needed to know my lenses were being dealt with (On reflection, I really should have pushed harder on this and I'm kicking myself that I didn't). Anyway, at the end of the week my kit was returned to my studio and I was again assured that their insurer were looking into the situation. Two days later, I received an email explaining that the company were not going to help and would not contact their insurer as they did not believe they were liable as the lenses never made it to the shoot. Obviously they signed a document of liability which says otherwise, and I've tried dealing with this diplomatically by explaining that the moment equipment is hired and leaves the premises of the rental company, it becomes the responsibility of the renter (Precisely the reason insurance is needed in advance and rental agreements are signed) and also that I would not have loaned them my (rare and expensive!) equipment if there was any risk that they would not replace or repair lost, stolen or damaged equipment, but they are refusing to get involved.
Since the kit effectively went out as a rental, my insurance will not cover the theft. I'm seriously annoyed at myself for giving them the equipment, but I just never imagined they would refuse to help if something like this happened.
As it stands, I'm left with no lenses and no way of replacing them. I believe that legally and ethically I'm in the right, but the process of taking action is going to require a great deal of effort and financial investment so I'm not exactly thrilled about the prospect of taking action. What's even more frustrating is that I have several shoots booked through November which require the lenses, so if I want to go ahead with the shoots I'm going to need to hire in kit to complete the jobs, at my own expenses.
The best thing that can possibly happen at this stage are for the lenses to be found, thus saving everyone involved any further stress. Realistically, that isn't going to happen, so I have to at least take comfort from the fact that the lenses are just objects (Insanely awesome objects) and at least no one was physically hurt as a result of the theft.
That production company absolutely sucks. Their crew picked up the kit on their behalf, so they are liable. They even had the cheek to carry on using the rest of your kit - picked up by the same crew! So how are the lenses any different?
Hopefully you have emails or texts for all the agreements and assurances that they would deal with the lenses. Verbal agreements are worthless without reliable witnesses.
Hopefully you have emails or texts for all the agreements and assurances that they would deal with the lenses. Verbal agreements are worthless without reliable witnesses.
- Thread starter
- #26
Yeah, everything was signed and agreed in advance and I have copies of all correspondence, so I really can't understand their position on this. I just really wanted to avoid taking the legal road to resolve this as it's going to be incredibly stressful for everyone involved.
Robert Horwell
Well-known member
Ian, are you saying that your personal insurance will not pay out because you are not covered to hire out ? The production company are absolutely liable, i'm surprised your insurance company aren't offering to help you out ian, either with advice or legal support. You could approach a law company and get a free hour of their time. Use that hour to ask as many questions as possible and try and get a good idea of your potential for success in a civil case. If you feel confident, get them to draft a letter informing the production company of your intention to prosecute if they do not replace the equipment. This single letter of intention could be enough for them to seek their own council at which point they will realise that they would be liable. This in turn could prompt them to get into action and do the right thing. A single letter of intention will not cost too much but could be highly effective.
Obviously i don't know the full story on how the lenses disappeared, but my experience tell me things are not always as black and white as they seem. Do you have it in writing that the production company have said they will actively look at replacing your lenses, or that they in any way accept liability? This could be in the form of an email.
Obviously i don't know the full story on how the lenses disappeared, but my experience tell me things are not always as black and white as they seem. Do you have it in writing that the production company have said they will actively look at replacing your lenses, or that they in any way accept liability? This could be in the form of an email.
- Thread starter
- #28
Hi Robert, thanks for the advice, all really useful.
That's correct, my insurance does not cover my equipment when it is hired out. I've been told by Quartz that no insurance company will do this as they cannot assess the potential risk every time equipment is rented out, without first researching the renter and the conditions of the shoot. This is why the need for the renter to supply insurance documents and to sign a rental agreement is so vital; effectively the responsibility lies with the renter the moment the equipment leaves the premises. If the renter picks up the equipment, drives directly to the shoot and has a car crash on the way, in which all equipment is damaged, the onus is on the renter to replace or repair the damaged kit, regardless of whether the equipment made it to the shoot or not. Obviously that's an incredibly unfortunate situation, but these things do happen and it's obviously very important to make sure the equipment is covered at all times.
My insurer offered to take a look at their policy to make sure it was legitimate (I have no doubt that it is legitimate), but the problem stems from the fact that the company are refusing to even contact their insurer. No claim has been made, nor have they notified their insurer (As far as I'm aware). They're simply refusing to get involved. I'm sure this is frustrating from their end too and you're absolutely right, these things are never completely black and white, however from my perspective it's pretty straight forward; I helped them out with free equipment, the lenses were stolen whilst under the care of the DoP (Employed by the production company for the week), they used the rest of my equipment for the remainder of the shoot whilst assuring me that they were dealing with their insurer regarding the theft of my lenses, and now they've decided they shouldn't have to file a claim.
Obviously had they informed of of this at the time of the incident, I would have insisted on getting the rest of my equipment back immediately, as they're position puts all of my equipment at risk while it's in their care. I believe that if they were dealing with a major rental company like Panalux or Take 2, there would be no question of liability, but because I am effectively just a man with a camera and lenses, certain liberties are being taken. Still, you're certainly correct when you state that this is just my perspective and I'm sure they have their own opinion of the situation, but I do feel that they're completely in breach of the agreement and terms of the rental. And it's especially difficult to accept in light of the fact that I was doing them a favour. If nothing else, I can learn from this and take extra precautions next time.
Do you think it's worth contacting my insurer again? The fact is, this is all completely new to me and I've not had to deal with a situation in anyway comparable to this before. The only other time my equipment has been damaged or lost on a rental, the company made sure I was reimbursed as quickly as possible and couldn't have been more helpful.
That's correct, my insurance does not cover my equipment when it is hired out. I've been told by Quartz that no insurance company will do this as they cannot assess the potential risk every time equipment is rented out, without first researching the renter and the conditions of the shoot. This is why the need for the renter to supply insurance documents and to sign a rental agreement is so vital; effectively the responsibility lies with the renter the moment the equipment leaves the premises. If the renter picks up the equipment, drives directly to the shoot and has a car crash on the way, in which all equipment is damaged, the onus is on the renter to replace or repair the damaged kit, regardless of whether the equipment made it to the shoot or not. Obviously that's an incredibly unfortunate situation, but these things do happen and it's obviously very important to make sure the equipment is covered at all times.
My insurer offered to take a look at their policy to make sure it was legitimate (I have no doubt that it is legitimate), but the problem stems from the fact that the company are refusing to even contact their insurer. No claim has been made, nor have they notified their insurer (As far as I'm aware). They're simply refusing to get involved. I'm sure this is frustrating from their end too and you're absolutely right, these things are never completely black and white, however from my perspective it's pretty straight forward; I helped them out with free equipment, the lenses were stolen whilst under the care of the DoP (Employed by the production company for the week), they used the rest of my equipment for the remainder of the shoot whilst assuring me that they were dealing with their insurer regarding the theft of my lenses, and now they've decided they shouldn't have to file a claim.
Obviously had they informed of of this at the time of the incident, I would have insisted on getting the rest of my equipment back immediately, as they're position puts all of my equipment at risk while it's in their care. I believe that if they were dealing with a major rental company like Panalux or Take 2, there would be no question of liability, but because I am effectively just a man with a camera and lenses, certain liberties are being taken. Still, you're certainly correct when you state that this is just my perspective and I'm sure they have their own opinion of the situation, but I do feel that they're completely in breach of the agreement and terms of the rental. And it's especially difficult to accept in light of the fact that I was doing them a favour. If nothing else, I can learn from this and take extra precautions next time.
Do you think it's worth contacting my insurer again? The fact is, this is all completely new to me and I've not had to deal with a situation in anyway comparable to this before. The only other time my equipment has been damaged or lost on a rental, the company made sure I was reimbursed as quickly as possible and couldn't have been more helpful.
Robert Horwell
Well-known member
HI Ian,
Ok. Quartz are not correct saying that no insurance company will insure you for hiring out. I have such a policy and am covered for hiring out. My policy is through ACJ and i am covered by Zurich. I am happy for you to use me as an example.
Ian you have the right to contact their insurers and inform them of what has happened. Inform the insurance company exactly what has happened. Tell them you want to pursue a claim. Ask them to contact their client. They will do this, they need to know about their clients reliability and the risk they are taking as insurers covering a company that is not behaving ethically. Once you have a contact at the insurers, get their name and email and send them an email documenting everything that has happened from beginning up until the present time. Get them to acknowledge receipt of the email. You need to start building up a paper trail. I know i told you to get legal advice and fire a letter off, and i meant it. Do it !
It's not frustrating from their end, it's downright dishonest and unethical. They are trying to pull one over on you, i suggest you don't let them. I hear stories like this more and more often. Although you may feel like you have no options, you do and you need to exercise them sooner rather than later. If you want to contact me offline please do i'm happy to give you as much guidance as i can offer.
Ok. Quartz are not correct saying that no insurance company will insure you for hiring out. I have such a policy and am covered for hiring out. My policy is through ACJ and i am covered by Zurich. I am happy for you to use me as an example.
Ian you have the right to contact their insurers and inform them of what has happened. Inform the insurance company exactly what has happened. Tell them you want to pursue a claim. Ask them to contact their client. They will do this, they need to know about their clients reliability and the risk they are taking as insurers covering a company that is not behaving ethically. Once you have a contact at the insurers, get their name and email and send them an email documenting everything that has happened from beginning up until the present time. Get them to acknowledge receipt of the email. You need to start building up a paper trail. I know i told you to get legal advice and fire a letter off, and i meant it. Do it !
It's not frustrating from their end, it's downright dishonest and unethical. They are trying to pull one over on you, i suggest you don't let them. I hear stories like this more and more often. Although you may feel like you have no options, you do and you need to exercise them sooner rather than later. If you want to contact me offline please do i'm happy to give you as much guidance as i can offer.
Robert Horwell
Well-known member
they do now.
Mike 'Fireman' Ross
Well-known member
All good comments, to which I would add this: to anyone doing this, don't let it go entirely free. Make them pay a token charge - a pound, a dollar.
That way, a 'valuable consideration' has changed hands, and it makes your position considerably stronger in contract law, if I remember my barrack-room legal training correctly!
Mike
That way, a 'valuable consideration' has changed hands, and it makes your position considerably stronger in contract law, if I remember my barrack-room legal training correctly!
Mike
Björn Benckert
Well-known member
If you had them sing a rental agreement and picking up the gear camera and lenses and now they are not willing to pay for the loss... It should be several columns in that rental agreement that keeps them responsible. Even for you lawyer costs etc. So get you lawyer in and then send them an invoice for the loss of the actual lenses. And also a second invoice that cover your losses for not having the lenses at hand basically the day rate for these lenses from the end of their rental until today... Then you also clearly inform them that you will continue to raise your claim by the lenses dayrate at least until the first invoice for the loss is covered and also make sure that they will pay for legal and lawyer fees.
If your rental agreement is correct you have all the rights to do as described above, and normally that will end with the client accepting the costs or they go bankruptcy... For the second option of those two, it's important who signed the rental agreement, if it was a runner at the production company, you might have less luck than if if was the CEO.
But anyway, make sure to act quickly those things does not solve better if you wait.
If your rental agreement is correct you have all the rights to do as described above, and normally that will end with the client accepting the costs or they go bankruptcy... For the second option of those two, it's important who signed the rental agreement, if it was a runner at the production company, you might have less luck than if if was the CEO.
But anyway, make sure to act quickly those things does not solve better if you wait.
Clovis Libert
Well-known member
I totally agree with Bjorn,
Im also renting my lenses and cameras, and you really need to charge them. For your own sanity you need to make them realised that they have to solve the problem, they are responsable If you dont that will kill you, i mean, you'll be thinking about that all the time. Keeping the pressure by charging them at a day rate is a good option to make them pay faster, otherwise they will make you wait like forever, and you wont support that. However i dont think you'll be able to recover the whole rent fees. If the refund you the price of the lenses that would be a relief, and you'll be able to manage some kind of agrement for the rest of the money.
Im also renting my lenses and cameras, and you really need to charge them. For your own sanity you need to make them realised that they have to solve the problem, they are responsable If you dont that will kill you, i mean, you'll be thinking about that all the time. Keeping the pressure by charging them at a day rate is a good option to make them pay faster, otherwise they will make you wait like forever, and you wont support that. However i dont think you'll be able to recover the whole rent fees. If the refund you the price of the lenses that would be a relief, and you'll be able to manage some kind of agrement for the rest of the money.
- Thread starter
- #34
I'm in complete agreement and believe me, I'll not make the same mistake again! As I say, in an attempt to look at this philosophically (Instead of adopting a defeatist attitude, which I think would probably be the easy option in this situation), I can at least learn from this experience and make sure this never happens again. I really do appreciate all of the feedback and suggestions.
Robert, this is incredibly useful and certainly advice that I will be following. Many, many thanks for this and it's particularly useful to know that Quartz are incorrect. After this experience, I'm not convinced that I'll be open to the idea of renting my equipment out again, but I will definitely be contacting my insurer again on Monday to discuss options and to also see if they can at least apply pressure to the production company and their insurer.
You're absolutely right about seeking legal advice and it's something that I'm going to pursue first thing on Monday morning. As you've mentioned, this needs to be dealt with sooner than later, and I think it's safe to say that my current approach of patience and diplomacy has been completely ineffective.
I really appreciate your offer to help me with this and if it still stands, I'm sure I'll be contacting you for further advice this week.
Huge thanks again for everyone's help, I'll keep you updated on the situation. Hopefully I can begin to get this situation resolved this week.
Robert, this is incredibly useful and certainly advice that I will be following. Many, many thanks for this and it's particularly useful to know that Quartz are incorrect. After this experience, I'm not convinced that I'll be open to the idea of renting my equipment out again, but I will definitely be contacting my insurer again on Monday to discuss options and to also see if they can at least apply pressure to the production company and their insurer.
You're absolutely right about seeking legal advice and it's something that I'm going to pursue first thing on Monday morning. As you've mentioned, this needs to be dealt with sooner than later, and I think it's safe to say that my current approach of patience and diplomacy has been completely ineffective.
I really appreciate your offer to help me with this and if it still stands, I'm sure I'll be contacting you for further advice this week.
Huge thanks again for everyone's help, I'll keep you updated on the situation. Hopefully I can begin to get this situation resolved this week.
- Thread starter
- #35
Hi everyone, I just wanted to let you know that my lenses have been located and I'm picking them up from the police on Wednesday! It looks as though they were randomly dumped a couple of weeks after the theft, and luckily they were picked up by someone who informed the police. Presumably, whoever stole them didn't know what to do with them so just ditched them after failing to sell them. I'm not sure what condition they're in yet, but the policeman I spoke to thinks the lenses haven't been removed from the flight case, so we'll see!
I still have a dispute with the production company and I think their behaviour over this situation has been abhorrent, but the important thing is that the lenses have been found.
Anyway, I just wanted to offer my sincerest thanks to everyone's help and advice, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it! If any of you ever find yourself in Brixton, please feel free to pop in my studio and say hello!
I still have a dispute with the production company and I think their behaviour over this situation has been abhorrent, but the important thing is that the lenses have been found.
Anyway, I just wanted to offer my sincerest thanks to everyone's help and advice, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it! If any of you ever find yourself in Brixton, please feel free to pop in my studio and say hello!
Andy White
Well-known member
WOW!
Brilliant and great outcome to get the K-35's back :smiley:
Pretty stupid villain (not checking the internet for their value!) - but congrats to the person that picked them up and took them to the Police... I'd say you owe that person a nice Xmas prezzie... or maybe a contribution to their favorite charity.
As for the Production Co - well, they've been pretty crap, so keep up the dispute (name and shame IMO, as they really took advantage - especially carrying on with your kit.
Nick Morrison
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Merry "early" Xmas Ian. I've been quietly agonizing for you from afar all month.
Great news.
Great news.
Robert Horwell
Well-known member
Ian that is fantastic. So happy for you. So maybe you could
PM me the name of the production company , make sue I never do business with them.
PM me the name of the production company , make sue I never do business with them.
Clayton Burkhart
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Yeah!
That is great news.
Overjoyed that you are getting them back.
Miracles do happen.
Congrats.
That is great news.
Overjoyed that you are getting them back.
Miracles do happen.
Congrats.
Samir Patel
Well-known member
Great news!