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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Canon and Nikon...

Jannard

Jannard

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This section has run wild lately... for no really good reason.

Canon and Nikon are great companies that make great products. They just have a different plan than RED. Neither plan is necessarily better than the other.

Canon and Nikon make outstanding stills cameras, now with prosumer quality motion capture. That isn't to say that you can't use prosumer quality in a professional application. Many will choose to do so. And the price is certainly right.

So why is it prosumer quality motion? The sensors are slow at full resolution capture. Pretty simple. Terrific for stills but in order to squeeze HD motion out of them, they do "techniques" to get the job done. Line-skipping is one such technique. And it is completely understandable why they do this. It saves sensor development costs (and time), processing power and heat generation. Using a compression codec like H264 is a reasonable part of their plan. It is a compromise, but then again it is an inexpensive solution. Nothing wrong with this plan... it is what it is. Anyone who says it is not valid, given it's constraints and price, is just not right.

RED is a professional motion capture tool that is improving all the time. RAW for motion and stills. It takes a fast sensor which is a much more difficult and expensive trick. It takes processing power times forever (over 100 times more powerful than a DSLR) and heat management. It just costs more to pull this stuff off...

All of the above companies make tools for your needs and price /performance for different customers. I think that we (RED), and maybe our hardcore customers, tend to get antsy only when people don't fully understand the difference between the two concepts.

If you are on a budget and can live with the compromises of the new DSLR motion capture systems, they make a good alternative. If you want uncompromising motion, we think that RED is a much better solution.

In the meantime, respectful debate and discussions are welcome here at reduser. If I have in any way inadvertently encouraged disrespectful dialog, I apologize. Let's all start again with a clean slate.

Jim
 
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nicely written Jim, completely hit the bulls eye.

I've never understood why people get so negative on certain things, different tools for different jobs.

on a side note i am looking forward to hearing more about some tools on october 30th.... :D
 
Jim

I dont really have much to add to what you say

The situation is that I am a pro stills photographer looking to add motion to my business offering

(not a cinamatographer)

Something I feel is an economic neccesity in a web multimedia age

The concept of using my nikons for this is just too exciting

But Im a RAW shooter and like the look of a nice big chip

Im still a visual snob even though im not shooting movies

I am frustrated

I have the option of my EX1 which IMO has looked rubbish to me ever since I unboxed it

The image quality of the EX1 is shocking to some one used to looking at hasselblad stills on screen

Then theses DSLRs come along and I can stick my 14 2.8 on a video camera - wow

Fundamentally its all frustration

I want 1080 RAW and a DSLR lens set, weight, portability and the rest

The frustration is it just does not exist

CaNik are showing no professional commitment and you lot , no disrespect, cant actually sell me something

You are coming from a standing start Canik have, lenses, AF technology - they have it all in place - surely they could produce

As someone who has been down the Digiback road and spent a lot of money on a product that is now worthless because you can buy better cheaper it is difficult to jump onto the Red game

Technically I would need a lot more detail from you people to get a deposit from me

Is your future offering going to be up there with a D3 in terms of stills capability?

(14mm through to 400mm) FF35. great ISO, instant AF, rugged light and wonderful

Im just not convinced at this point

Bring me that and you get my money

S
 
Jim, can you comment on exactly what the compromises are for DSLR HD?
 
Sam... stay tuned on the 30th to see if we hit your button.

Phil... we have done zone plate tests and the best measured resolution we can get from a DSLR (HD) is 6 times less than Mysterium-X. Due to line-skipping, the not surprising compromises from this technique are moire and aliasing, with an occasional odd motion artifact thrown in. H264 is not a professional acquisition codec. 8 bit color from this codec does not have the flexibility for grading as REDCODE. EPIC's full resolution 100fps is certainly more capable than 24/25/30fps. This is simple stuff and should not come as a surprise. I'll be quick to point out that the DSLRs are cheaper. But I'd also point out that the RED cameras are much more flexible with interchangeable lens mounts and a completely modular approach.

These point to only some of the differences. I do not mean to demean the DSLRs in any way. Like I said, they come from different technology and company philosophies.

Jim
 
Good question Evin.
I just worked with a still photographer who shot with Hasselblad/Phase1/Zeiss lenses in pararell with motion Red (50mm RPP) and could not understand why the OLPF of the Red reduced sharpness when all the way zoomed in Redcine. Interchangeable OLPF anyone?
 
You sure have a way with words Jim.

I realize that I have been trying to compare my Canon DSLRs (with Video) to my RED ONE since I have owned the RED, and it's just truly an unfair comparison. The RED can shoot video that stands on top of the hill, arguably untouched by the competition, and has even proven capable of shooting stills for magazines and beyond.

You seem to run your company with "no compromise" as a foundation and I think that is inverse of how these other companies make decisions.

It is refreshing to see a company just a few years old completely dominate a market and offer what us professionals need and want ( and actually listen to us! ). Canon and Nikon really need to take a page from your book, because if you do to the still market what you have done to the motion market, they are going to be in a world of hurt.
 
I hope so - I dont care what logo is on my camera I just want a tool that functions

Two things..

Shooting with a mirror I can be viewing at 1.8 and shooting at 4 - my stuff is sharp

Also

RED PRO 18-85MM (I)

Price: $9,975.00

This lens could do it all for me if .. it will AF, if it will cover FF35

And what confidence do I have in spending $9,975.00 on someting that I might get similar for $900 by 2010

If you have hacked the electronic control of either canons or nikons then it may all be good

------

On those primes I know cinamatographers hate short throw stills lenses - but they are missing the potential..

focus control using their amazing internal motors

ITS MOTORS IN THE LENSES that those cameras have and you dont (yet/maybe/dunno)

Im sure you have the chip and compression

If only we could marry the two

Of course if you need a 'still evaluator' you can give me a call :) - Im harsher than Annie or Chase because I produce for my clients on sensible budgets

S
 
I say own both and make sure you have an HVR-Z1U or similar too. Each situation is different. I'd be real frustrated if my best possible image quality was my 5DM2 but I'd be just as equally frustrated if I didn't have something like the Z1U around when my son is about to take his first steps. :)

-Michael zaletel
 
If you shoot surfing climbing or something and want stills and motion and are operating alone in a harsh environment you just cant carry two systems - this is one reason why VDSLRs have interest to me - portability

S
 
Jannard said:
But I'd also point out that the RED cameras are much more flexible with interchangeable lens mounts and ...



Jim
Click to expand...

Jim,

would you be so kind to give us more details on this if it's possible before 30th...(???!!!)
 
You can have all the lens mount you want but for STILL (and possbily ENG/Steadicam etc) if the electronics are not talked too then really it is nothing

canon and nikon lenses have inbuilt focus motors and iris control

the right body could negate the need for all that mechanical crap that hangs off cine cams and replace it with a FF that could be an Iphone APP or a little wifi joystick

programmed focus pull, AF, a focus pull motion where a constant speed of control translates to a constant change in distance (rather than have to speed up as the subject closes in)

back focus Adjust at the press of a button

peaking driven AF

touch monitor FF

it is the electronic control that matters

I have time and respect for bartech and hocus focus but they are playing with 60s technology, current red primes are crippled with the same, canon and nikon have it but dont use it

S
 
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Morgan.. all that mechanical crap has bugged us for quite some time as well :)

heh heh heh... ;)
 
Of course, if you build a camera - heres an idea - probably not new - where the chip moves

you get..

built in stabilisation, electronic AF, cheap lenses with no mechanics, programmable focus pulls, perfect dutch rolls, tilt, shift

an endless list contolled by apps written by a community not a corporation

S
 
Jarred Land said:
Morgan.. all that mechanical crap has bugged us for quite some time as well :)

heh heh heh... ;)
Click to expand...

man I love all these late night CLUES... Thanks Jarred! If people read these threads. I mean really read them, I'd say 90% of the Oct 30 announcement is already on here... ;)
 
morgan_moore said:
You can have all the lens mount you want but for STILL (and possbily ENG/Steadicam etc) if the electronics are not talked too then really it is nothing

canon and nikon lenses have inbuilt focus motors and iris control

the right body could negate the need for all that mechanical crap that hangs off cine cams and replace it with a FF that could be an Iphone APP or a little wifi joystick

programmed focus pull, AF, a focus pull motion where a constant speed of control translates to a constant change in distance (rather than have to speed up as the subject closes in)

back focus Adjust at the press of a button

peaking driven AF

touch monitor FF

it is the electronic control that matters

I have time and respect for bartech and hocus focus but they are playing with 60s technology, current red primes are crippled with the same, canon and nikon have it but dont use it

S
Click to expand...

Sam,

I'm not asking or talking here about a possibility to make "iPhone" sized such a "gorgeous" sort of web video even that shot on Canon 5DMK2, Nikon D3S or similar HDSLRs,...

And I would like to talk about upcoming Epic/Scarlet like a professional cine digital cameras that have interchangeable mount option...
 
If I was RED, I wouldn't be afraid of the DSLR movement.

If I was Letus, Brevis, Redrock Micro, etc...I'd be getting other non-dof-adaptor products out as soon as possible. For an average micro-budget filmmaker, I think the big war the past few years has been less about resolution and more about depth of field when it comes to getting a "film look." Now, for $1800, they have it with a great stills camera, too. (7d) RED is not going to be hurt by this, but I do believe those other companies might be.

From what I've seen, once the normal prosumer camera could do 24p and 1080 HD, the only think lacking for PROSUMER filmmakers was the DOF. But, if you're talking about future-proofing your "negative" for later, good luck with h.264.
 
i really dont get why people compare the red/scarlet with a 5d or 7d ?
on the other side they never would compare it with a hv30 or any
fixed lense camcorder.....
that is a bit strange !!!
 
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