Canon and Nikon...

[morgan_moore]

Sam,

I'm not asking or talking here about a possibility to make "iPhone" sized such a "gorgeous" sort of web video even that shot on Canon 5DMK2,

My mention of Iphone (or similar) was as a device, that could be used as a FF controller

Rather than the old tech we see nowadays the $5000 FF device, which is not even correctly geared for short throw lenses

S

 

[morgan_moore]

i really dont get why people compare the red/scarlet with a 5d or 7d ?
on the other side they never would compare it with a hv30 or any
fixed lense camcorder.....
that is a bit strange !!!

Scarlet is hoped to have stills and new media application(s)

D3/D3x are IMO the pinnacle of the stills market so a comparison is fair

D3 of course shoots RAW 4k burst at 13FPS (useful in some product/timelapse applications)

A D3 is available today with a decent lense set for $10k

A D3 has rocket AF and useable 1600ISO

A D3 is what Jim need to persuade me to dump, and maybe primes from 14 through to 400 by nikon

All these primes contain sensivite motors to control potentially focus and iris and have an image circle that cover FF35 (a minimium chip size IMO for still images)

My stills photography industry is changing to provide motion too for web , in store, and other applications

Red is hoping AFAIK to tap into potential buyers such as myself who while are not motion picture cinematographers but are still working professionals who are visual snobs addicted to the look of large sensors and decent prime lenses

We love the concept of in DSLR motion recording, but are not enjoying the reality of the motion recording built into the current crop of DSLRs

S

 

[David Rasberry]

i really dont get why people compare the red/scarlet with a 5d or 7d ?
on the other side they never would compare it with a hv30 or any
fixed lense camcorder.....
that is a bit strange !!!

Perhaps because they are new and have novel capabilities. Good low light sensitivity, good dynamic range, and they can produce decent 35mm cinematic style footage within their limits at very low cost. Certainly a major step up from the HV class handicams and many would say any of the sub $10k prosumer video cams.

True high quality motion acquisition over the full range of shooting styles and field conditions many of us deal with is critically more demanding of camera performance than these VDSLRs were ever intended to provide though. Such quality unfortunately for many of us comes at a very steep price delta.

Bravo to RED and Mr. Jannard for doing their best to fill the gap.

 

[Jim Retar]

Good initial post.

As a Canon user interested in the RED movement, it can be quite off putting coming on here and seeing post after post about how Canon are these greedy demons. They are just making great still cameras that can handle very good web video for the photo journos. In the right hands, they can even be pushed towards 720p broadcast output.

I look forward to owning both a Canon DSLR and a RED Scarlett. Simple.

 

[morgan_moore]

Good initial post.



I look forward to owning both a Canon DSLR and a RED Scarlett. Simple.

Really?

And two sets of glass, and paying for some one to lug it all about

Carrying a D3 + 400 2.8 and Ex1 to my local surfbreak is bad enough, owning two housings - well I have not gone there - but I have a D90 in a housing which does both one badly - climbing Kili - I ve done that unasssited - stills only of course

Surely you would prefer one tool - if it does the job - think mass - think peripherals

S

 

[morgan_moore]

What I want to do well..

S

 

[Tom.Wong]

Really?

And two sets of glass, and paying for some one to lug it all about


S

who says that RED won't finally come out with a solid canon mount? mount system on the new gen cameras from red are stated as different from the R1 system, i'm sure they have taken account to how much people want to put FD and EOS glass on their cameras. one set of glass may be all he needs.

and it's a fact that a lot of people compliment their RED productions with a canon dslr. it follows the more point and shoot mentality, less setup time, easy to get a quick shot in and light enough in form factor to put in places you can't normally fit a big digital cinema camera in. and they are cheap enough so that you can have all the RED you can handle, and have one on the side as a camera B or C that anybody can just take out and grab some quick shots for you that you might need. save on some hard drive space too.

it's a wonderful tool to have on top of already a powerful arsenal RED has supplied/and will be supplying for us all, and I'm glad Jim said these words because there is just way too much unproductive arguments about it. Everybody has different needs and ways of acquisition, and I think everybody just needs to respect that and respect all the things available are simply a blessing. 10 years ago this was a pipe dream.

 

[Felix K.]

I felt that a lot of informed criticism especially towards Canon came from people who are frustrated that they sell improvments little by little and make you buy a full system each time. Also Canon's information policy is frustrating at times for their customers.
The whole 5D MK II 30p, 7D 24p, and then 5D Mk II 24p confusion didn't feel right.

That is why RED and REDUSER is special and that is why "obsolescence obsolete" is a revolutionary concept in the camera market.

 

[morgan_moore]

and it's a fact that a lot of people compliment their RED productions with a canon dslr.

Absolutely - Im laying out what I would like the market to provide for ME

I dont do Cinema or TV Production I work alone in the field with maybe one assistant shooting stills

I want to add good quality, preferably grabbable at print quality, motion to my business offer

I have outlined my 'desires' here now

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=497315#post497315

S

 

[David Rasberry]

Really?

And two sets of glass, and paying for some one to lug it all about

Carrying a D3 + 400 2.8 and Ex1 to my local surfbreak is bad enough, owning two housings - well I have not gone there - but I have a D90 in a housing which does both one badly - climbing Kili - I ve done that unasssited - stills only of course

Surely you would prefer one tool - if it does the job - think mass - think peripherals

S

I am primarily a motion shooter, not a still photographer. Aside from any image quality issues the DSLR form factor itself is an unacceptable ergonomic compromise, especially when there is a mirror reflex viewfinder involved and the only video screen is a small fixed LCD on the back of the camera. Of course a Sony EX1 doesn't have very good ergonomics either for hand held work. But at least it has a decent orientable EVF.

 

[morgan_moore]

Indeed RED is the tool for motion pictures no dispute

In terms of the ergonomics for shooting both I think a module on a rails system probably containing XLR inputs, monitor and HD recorder with a spereate module which comes free for stills is the solution

I have been trying to handle DSLRs for motion and created www.halfinchrails.com, good for both DSLR and EX1 use, monitioring the DSLR is still an issue which is foremost in my thoughts right now

S

 

[Jim Retar]

Really?

And two sets of glass, and paying for some one to lug it all about

Carrying a D3 + 400 2.8 and Ex1 to my local surfbreak is bad enough, owning two housings - well I have not gone there - but I have a D90 in a housing which does both one badly - climbing Kili - I ve done that unasssited - stills only of course

Surely you would prefer one tool - if it does the job - think mass - think peripherals

S

I understand what you are saying, but you are only thinking about how you will use your cameras.

I tend to work in a team, and if we are out on location, then yes... we often would pay for labour to get our equipment around.

Without personally handling a Scarlett or knowing about a Canon lens mount for it, it is hard to judge the other points you mention. It may be more than possible to carry a DSLR, a kitted out Scarlett plus Canon Lenses and tripod.

Also, wanting to own both a DSLR and a RED does not mean I will have to take both with me on every shoot. If I am in a situation where I want mainly stills, but might be able to grab some nice footage here and there... DSLR it is.... and vice versa for RED/footage.

Of course, if someone were to bring out a DSLR with no moire, aliasing, jello... 3k+ resolution, 1-60fps, pro ins/outs and a raw codec...... chances are I would hold off on a RED. I just don't see it happening for at least a year, if ever.

Still, exciting times for all!

 

[morgan_moore]

Of course, if someone were to bring out a DSLR with no moire, aliasing, jello... 3k+ resolution, 1-60fps, pro ins/outs and a raw codec...... chances are I would hold off on a RED. I just don't see it happening for at least a year, if ever.

Exactly what I hope for on the 30th Im just questioning that the peripherals will stand up to demanding stills use too

S

 

[Geoff McLeod]

Canon and Red make a great combo

Canon and Red make a great combo

I own a R1 and a 5Dm2. I use both on my shoots for tv and cinema. Why? The R1 is the main camera and takes rock-solid footage – you can depend on it. The 5Dm2 is manly a 'B' camera, used for small pick up shots allowing us to shoot in low light. The 5Dm2 has actually improved our ability to get more usable shots in the can. Having such a small camera that works well in low light takes the pressure of the R1 'A' camera, allowing us to spend more time on the shots that need it.
I see a future where you wouldn't shoot without having both cameras as part of an overall tool kit. I should point out that we use Nikon primes on both cameras. This has saved us money and yields great results.

However, the Canon offering isn't as cheap as it sounds. With Red you only cry once. With canon - in the last 5 years I have had to buy a 10D ($4000 kit) then a 5D $1800 body, then the 5Dm2 $3000 body. And if I upgrade again to the new 1D, add another $5000. That's a total of $13,800 in five years. That definitely puts a long term Canon solution to be just as expensive as a R1.

It's like what Steve Jobs said when he came back to Apple, "For Apple to win, Microsoft doesn't have to lose." I see a similar situation developing between Red and Canon. Neither company will lose to each other. I'm glad there are cheap dslrs that shoot video now. I'm glad I invested in an R1 and the long term commitment that Red is giving it.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Of course, if you build a camera - heres an idea - probably not new - where the chip moves

you get..

built in stabilisation, electronic AF, cheap lenses with no mechanics, programmable focus pulls, perfect dutch rolls, tilt, shift

an endless list contolled by apps written by a community not a corporation

S

Minolta/Sony did (does?) this on their dslr. A while back they had a demo unit in the stores where the chip block was in a little acrylic display with a wire to the body and when you moved it/shook it you could see the chip move - it was amazing how far and fast it would move. In response, Canon claimed that it was better to have the IS in the lens because you could tune the IS level to the focal length of the lens. Moving the chip was one size fits all, but it also meant you got IS with normal non IS lenses.

 

[morgan_moore]

Minolta/Sony did (does?) this on their dslr.

Indeed the tech is not far off - but the thinking ?

I see that being driven by user written Open APPs for tilt, shift, stabilisation and whatever other stuff a world of programmers or users can think of

I for one would love horizon controlled while not being subjected to Pan judder

S

 

[Jim Retar]

However, the Canon offering isn't as cheap as it sounds. With Red you only cry once. With canon - in the last 5 years I have had to buy a 10D ($4000 kit) then a 5D $1800 body, then the 5Dm2 $3000 body. And if I upgrade again to the new 1D, add another $5000. That's a total of $13,800 in five years. That definitely puts a long term Canon solution to be just as expensive as a R1.

Surely you can sell off that equipment though? I've rarely lost too much money when selling off old kit and upgrading.

I really don't see a DSLR body as much more than a RED brain. As long as the lenses, battery packs, storage system, filters etc stay much the same (not always the case, of course!), it is still just an upgradable system to me.

Having everything as upgradeable components is the ideal solution, like RED are trying.... but it will come at a price.... as they will never shift as many units as an all in one solution.

 

[Kreisky]

My stills photography industry is changing to provide motion too for web , in store, and other applications

that is exactley what I mean ! it is a great tool for the web !
i wont produce a cinema movie with the 5d or a web video with a red cam.
of corse the canons have good specs.....still you cant shoot a cinema movie with it not even really a tv broadcast production !
the motion recording is only a little bonus for foto guys.....
(which i think is a good idea to get them as dp´s started)
dunno thats the way i think

 

[morgan_moore]

note the 'in store' bit - could be big size

I have photos 2m high is some stores 4m at trade shows and one double decker bus once, but that tech (the screen) for motion is some time away I imagine

S

 

[Jim Retar]

still you cant shoot a cinema movie with it not even really a tv broadcast production !

I think the new canon possibly could.... jello is apparently none existent. The only big issue is aliasing/moire and you can get around that, especially if you are down converting to 720p or SD.

I'm sure we will see a theater release next year with one of these DSLRs.... obviously nothing from a major studio, but possibly an indie with the right ideas and techniques.

As for TV broadcast, it's already happening... trust me.