Canon 7D Zone Plate Shots

[Sanjin Jukic]

I agree with you Tom. It's good to know the facts and all. I just find it a little strange that this test is coming from inside Red HQ. If it was coming from a Reduser, like Sanjin, then it wouldn't matter, but the fact that Red is doing this test to blow the doors of Canon is what's weird to me. Red doesn't need to prove anything, they already have, 100-fold. The Canon is less than $2,000. The Red 8X Scarlet will be over $3,000 with a 2/3" sensor and fixed lens. The Red One is over $30k. I don't see the point. I don't see Canon shooting zone plates of the the R1 and claiming that it isn't true 4k so why is Red trying to prove how 'sucky' the 7D is?

Rick,

1. Everybody here should face the truth about the fact that still photo camera sensors are much more advanced

speaking low light capabilities @ higher ISO than any newer digital cinema sensor like a

RED Mysterium, RED M-X, new Arri Alev III, Genesis, Sony F35, F23, SI2K, etc,...


2. Another fact that can also face the truth is that no RAW recoding from any vDSLR with existing body design any time soon or never.


3. The third fact that should face the truth is that Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Sony, Sigma, Leica, Pentax, etc,... have to work out to get

HDMI live feed clean and easy for recording on external type of recorder (something like AJA KiPro, Cinedeck HD, Matrox MXO Mini, BM Intensity Pro, etc,...).


BTW, there is other rumor on the internet that RED is considering to buy Panavision and with that (hardware, accessories, lenses) is much easier to compete with ARRI.


That is also an idea I was writing a couple of months ago here at the forum.

But about the last thing is a fact that exists just as a rumor and nobody knows anything about that more.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

But about the last thing is a fact that exists just as a rumor and nobody knows anything about that more.

Are you the rumor doer...?

About the prores capture of the 7D HDMI feed.

You can get rid of h264 compression artifacts but it makes the aliasing of the image more visible. Prehaps ingeneering counted on the uke:"blur effect" of the H264 to minimize the disturbance of aliasing?

For example look at the teeth of the young women that keep changing from white/red/blue.

Keep on Sanjin!!!

Pat

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Are you the rumor doer...?

About the prores capture of the 7D HDMI feed.

You can get rid of h264 compression artifacts but it makes the aliasing of the image more visible. Prehaps ingeneering counted on the uke:"blur effect" of the H264 to minimize the disturbance of aliasing?

For example look at the teeth of the young women that keep changing from white/red/blue.

Keep on Sanjin!!!

Pat

Pat,

tomorrow I'll get BM Intensity Pro for HDMI and also Caprock 2.0 anti moire filter.

The first Quick & Dirty tests on the weekend.

Stay tuned.

And all about RED buyout Panavision is a pure rumor and generally have no factual info from outside of what I wrote here at the forum.

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

I was always thinking it was just me or at least me and only a few were complaining about the way Red produced images could turn out like with some kind of grey transparent layer to some images. (it might have been gamma or black level issues due to codecs...
But I must admit that this files were always vimeo or even lower res files distributed on the internet.

What was somewhat disturbing to me , is the fact that I've never saw a lot of sequences appear with enough night footage from the Red in their showreels, and if they were there, that they were chosen very specific with still a lot of available light in the scene.

It became obvious in to me when I got the GH1 last month ( due to the fact that I couldn't get a 7d fast enough for taking with me that day anymore ) and did a week of test shooting on it in Spain , that it produced way more the look that I desired when I was defending the red in the past. I must admit that I'll get the 7d and a second 7d or maby 1 5dm2 still this week because from what I've seen, the things I'd like to produce, the ease of handling the files, there is not to much demand (client wise) to go in higher resolution or for a different format when not shooting for a higher budgeted production.

Because it's not how much I've defend the Red camera since it came out and everyone was making it a joke here in Belgium and everywhere else, and al these Dp's shooting on it right now, are exactly the same dp's who could make our investments turn bad in a short time , if they will offer more for less to their clients , just because they've found a quicker and more desirable look in a faster way, which doesn't tax their accounts as much and could give them more benefit. Quality can be really dangerous in such areas, and doing business can be really strange and unpredictable.

I must say I still believe in Red a lot and that I can't wait to shoot with the Epic when it comes out , and I hope it will produce a way more clean image in the night scenes, but hopefully they'll take their time and make it right from the first time , even if it envolves very tough decisions from Mr. Janard to take and get the project delayed. I really hope it'll be a system that can really compete without any withhold against the new Ari which will be released on schedule as they pronounced.

In the meantime i'll enjoy my new arsenal...and waiting until the beast will be released.

Hope the moiré filter could be some help as well..

 

[Neil W. Smith]

dumb question ...

dumb question ...

:smile: The pixel-level contrast determines how much aliasing will occur (i.e. 80% MTF at Nyquist will result in very bad aliasing, whereas less than 10% MTF will result in none). Achieving high contrast for a small number of pixels (say, a 0.5 MP digicam) is easy: you can shoot handheld, on a rickety tripod, with soft lenses, at f/32, with a rough eyeball focus, and still get a very sharp shot. Change that 0.5 MP for a 50 MP camera, though, and now you find that shooting handheld causes a blur that spans almost a dozen pixels. Nailing focus is much more difficult. The rickety tripod is no longer sufficient to suppress that blur. Lenses that were sharp enough to cause aliasing on a 0.5 MP camera cannot do the same on a 50 MP camera. So on and so forth. It is those practical, everyday factors that make aliasing less and less likely with each increase in resolution.

Daniel,

Bear with me, mate .... I like your explanation and I think I get it (not 100% sure to tell the truth) so I'm going to ask a very dumb question:

Why is pixel-level contrast so critical to aliasing and artifacting in these HD DSLRs given that they're line skipping across a large sensor size? ... even the small EOS 7D is the same size as the RED ONE? ... or have I totally missed the point? ... feel free to throw things if you want :-(

Also, how do you know about all this shit? what's your background?

Neil

 

[Neil W. Smith]

its amazing how far you've come in such a short time ...

its amazing how far you've come in such a short time ...

Unfortunately, the file is not mine to give out. I still have a good bunch of early Frankie raw files - they're alway fun to look back at!

Graeme

Understand about the TIFF file - no worries.

What really impressed me about those early days in RED development was how you and Jim used Photoshop to communicate what he was trying to achieve and how you were going to deliver the solution .... it really was a privilege to witness the alchemical process of you and Jim turning those unwieldy, heavily banded 4K images up on the screen into the silky smooth RED RAW images we've come to know and love.

To watch a mundane image of a red 959 Porsche being transformed into visual poetry before my very eyes was indeed magic ... it was then, I knew you had captured lightning in a bottle ... well at least, you had fucking amazing debayering algorithm.

Keep up the good work, Sir ... looking forward to sipping a dram or two of the malt with you at NAB next year.

Neil

 

[Daniel Browning]

Why is pixel-level contrast so critical to aliasing and artifacting in these HD DSLRs given that they're line skipping across a large sensor size?

Because line skipping causes higher per-pixel contrast (i.e. contrast at and above Nyquist). It's like decreasing the fill factor, which is why you need the sensor's optical fill factor to calculate the MTF of the sensor (for a 100% fill factor, the MTF is 64% at Nyquist.)

... even the small EOS 7D is the same size as the RED ONE?

Yes.

Also, how do you know about all this shit?

Books, papers, articles, and discussion forums like this one.

what's your background?

Software Engineer (14 years).

 

[Vince K]

I just bought my 7D and a couple of lenses today and I'm totally looking forward to playing around with it.
I think shooting wise, it's going to be good practice for me till the release of Scarlet, and after I get my Scarlet...I'll have a pretty kickass B cam.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

In many ways still works like that....

Graeme

Understand about the TIFF file - no worries.

What really impressed me about those early days in RED development was how you and Jim used Photoshop to communicate what he was trying to achieve and how you were going to deliver the solution .... it really was a privilege to witness the alchemical process of you and Jim turning those unwieldy, heavily banded 4K images up on the screen into the silky smooth RED RAW images we've come to know and love.

To watch a mundane image of a red 959 Porsche being transformed into visual poetry before my very eyes was indeed magic ... it was then, I knew you had captured lightning in a bottle ... well at least, you had fucking amazing debayering algorithm.

Keep up the good work, Sir ... looking forward to sipping a dram or two of the malt with you at NAB next year.

Neil

 

[Juan Baranchuk]

Pat,

tomorrow I'll get BM Intensity Pro for HDMI and also Caprock 2.0 anti moire filter.

The first Quick & Dirty tests on the weekend.

Stay tuned.

And all about RED buyout Panavision is a pure rumor and generally have no factual info from outside of what I wrote here at the forum.

Please shoot some zone plate/ test charts to compare resolution on H264 vs Proress 422 HQ 1080p vs Still with your Canon 7D, I suspect the line skipping of the 7D will still be there. The artifacts should go... But I suspect the line skipping will remain. Please use the sharpest lenses you have...

Thanks,

Juan

 

[joakim_hansson]

But it just continues to amaze me how so many Redusers, mostly a group of low budget filmmakers, who have experienced the internet "oppression" from the elitists in the industry in regards to their choice of camera would now turn around and treat the no budget filmmaker who is going out and shooting on their 5D/7D/GH1/etc in exactly the same disrespectful way.

Really shameful behavior.

Haha yeah I totally agree with you on that one, but as they say "shit runs downhill.."

 

[Tom Lowe]

But it just continues to amaze me how so many Redusers, mostly a group of low budget filmmakers, who have experienced the internet "oppression" from the elitists in the industry in regards to their choice of camera would now turn around and treat the no budget filmmaker who is going out and shooting on their 5D/7D/GH1/etc in exactly the same disrespectful way.

Really shameful behavior.

Yeah, and who exactly is doing that here? Who is being disrespectful exactly? In what ways are these Reduser members supposedly being disrespectful?

Are you saying that we are no longer allowed to examine and comment on the image quality of Canon cameras, because it might "offend" someone?

If we care about image quality, we are somehow "oppressing" Canon users? Most of us ARE Canon users!

The shameful thing, IMO, is people who show up here and try to call us names like "elitist" and "oppressors" if we dare to look at zone plates, test charts, or even to make simple observations and comparisons of various cameras to establish baseline capabilities. It's getting to the point of ridiculousness now.

 

[David Rasberry]

Yeah, and who exactly is doing that here? Who is being disrespectful exactly? In what ways are these Reduser members supposedly being disrespectful?

Are you saying that we are no longer allowed to examine and comment on the image quality of Canon cameras, because it might "offend" someone?

If we care about image quality, we are somehow "oppressing" Canon users?

Quite a few Red One owners apparently own and use these VDSLR's too, so I don't think criticism is anti Canon or Nikon per se, but honest observation about the limitations of these cameras. They are not, nor were they ever intended to be, pro level general purpose motion picture cameras. They do well when their limits are considered and respected by the shooter, but there are a lot of production situations where they will not do well at all.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I think, Tom, he's just pointing out the irony that many on RedUser in the past have been more than happy to call professionals who shoot on film "elitist" for looking down on digital, whether the slight is real or imagined... but some now are doing the same thing here, looking down on those shooting with DSLR's in HD mode (not necessarily in this thread). He made the point of excluding those who are engaged in rational discussions of technical issues and problems.

It's human nature to be tribal though, to draw artificial borders that include some people and exclude others. So I'm not surprised to see some "clubbiness" around here, it's a Red user site after all so it only makes sense.

But that shouldn't stop anyone for making honest criticisms based on fact and science. Most of the problems with DSLR video are not imaginary.

 

[christopher witzke]

What if we stop calling them "problems" and go back to calling them "compromises"?

and... sometimes a situation is worth the compromise.... and sometimes it's not.

I don't mean to sound like Chance the Gardener.... but it is what it is.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

What if we stop calling them "problems" and go back to calling them "compromises"?

and... sometimes a situation is worth the compromise.... and sometimes it's not.

And some compromises become problems and some don't.

 

[Brad Webb]

I don't mean to sound like Chance the Gardener.... but it is what it is.

100 points to you sir for the "Being There" reference!!!

 

[Tom Lowe]

I see Redusers being lumped into this one-size-fits-all "elitist" category. Every time anyone dares to point a 7D or 5D2 at a zone plate or test chart, everyone freaks out and gets defensive. But to me, it's very, very useful information. I shoot every day on Canon DSLRs. I'm no elitist... but I do like to know the facts.

Regarding the irony, I don't see it. A lot of people are trying to say, "Gotcha! You Redusers used to call film guys elitists, now you've become them!" But I actually think that is incorrect. Sure, it's a convenient thing to say, and maybe an entertaining thing to say, but is it correct?

When Red first came out, the main focus was on QUALITY. Quality, quality, quality. Finally people could afford a camera with quality that *essentially* matched expensive film. There had been cameras like HVXs and EX1s floating around for years. So Red was all about changing the quality game. It's probably the main factor that all of us here have in common -- we are seeking high-quality imagery.

So the fact that most of us continue to be incredibly interested in high-quality imagery -- pixel peepers, so to speak -- is hardly ironic, nor is it any kind of "gotcha" moment.

News flash: people on this forum like high-quality imaging. Always have, always will.

Anyway, that's enough ranting from me to last a couple of months! Now I'm off to go shoot some video on a Canon! :beer:

 

[Neil W. Smith]

the voice of reason ...

the voice of reason ...

I think, Tom, he's just pointing out the irony that many on RedUser in the past have been more than happy to call professionals who shoot on film "elitist" for looking down on digital, whether the slight is real or imagined... but some now are doing the same thing here, looking down on those shooting with DSLR's in HD mode (not necessarily in this thread). He made the point of excluding those who are engaged in rational discussions of technical issues and problems.

It's human nature to be tribal though, to draw artificial borders that include some people and exclude others. So I'm not surprised to see some "clubbiness" around here, it's a Red user site after all so it only makes sense.

But that shouldn't stop anyone for making honest criticisms based on fact and science. Most of the problems with DSLR video are not imaginary.

Agree totally with David - as ever, he is the voice of reason on this board.

All this tribal bashing is totally understandable on one level but on another level its counter-productive ... as filmmakers we should all be concerned about the efficacy of the tools we can harness for our visual story telling and how to get the most out of them .... when Jim first announced the RED on the CML (of which David is a highly respected contributor) many established DPs made disparaging comments on the quality of the imagery and the viability of the RED project .... I sent an email to Jim back in September of 2006 telling him to trust his own instincts and to 'plough his own furrow' and now, three years later, many of those same established DPs are using the RED ONE to make compelling movies.

Two years is a long-time in a Moore's Law driven industry .... once Scarlet arrives many REDheads will be able to afford to buy a RAW camera for the first time .... in the meantime the HD DSLR manufacturers will continue to improve the video capabilities of their cameras .... even now, at $1700 for a Canon EOS 7D I suspect many non REDhead filmmakers will buy it and start making creative projects.

It'll be interesting to see what we'll all be denigrating in two years from now .... an iPhone that shoots 4k and costs $299 .... but just look how bad that aliasing and moire effect is ... oh, and how many millions of Units did Apple ship while we were drooling over our 8K perfect images .... and who's that cool young ASC DP shooting her first feature on multiple iPhones?

The next few years is going to be an incredible time for digital acquisition development ... tribalism is good .... Darwinian survival is better.

Neil

 

[Stephen Williams]

When Red first came out, the main focus was on QUALITY. Quality, quality, quality. Finally people could afford a camera with quality that *essentially* matched expensive film. There had been HVXs and EX1s floating around for years. So Red was all about changing the quality game. It's probably the main factor that all of us here have in common -- we are seeking high-quality imagery.
:

Hi Tom,

I always believed the main focus was 4K resoloution for $17,500, thats what I hear most.
I think you will find the RED one was shipping before the EX1.

Best,

Stephen