Canon 7D vs. RED ONE - a real footage comparison

[Eric Deitz]

When was the last time you took on the Hollywood establishment in defending the RED ONE?

Will we continue to recommend and grade RED ONE to filmmakers? ... you bet! ... will we continue to work with ARRI and CANON on developing better workflows for filmmakers? .... you bet!

Will we continue to be at the fore-front of the digital filmmaking revolution and continue to provide cost-effective finishing solutions to digital filmakers .... absofuckinglutely!

Neil

I agree.

I think the more interesting question/ point here is which will the independent filmmaker choose? With the digital reveloution, I think it is a second rise of the independent filmmakers. When I say independent filmmakers, I mean no financial backing, mostly volunteer crew, and about $5,000-$10,000 to spend production filmmakers. Basically, the rising filmmakers from film schools and those who watch movies with the time and money to make one.

Yes, the image and technology the RED offers is supperior, I don't think the 7D should be a threat. I would say the HDDSLR "revolution" will kill prosumer cameras as long as the companies continue to make products aimed at digital filmmakers. The 7D and other HDDSLR cameras creates a cheaper work flow for independent and student filmmakers that allows shallow deepth of field and clear video to be achieved.

I also would like to say that the 7D is a great learning tool for anyone who wants to DP and can help low productions achieve the look for their film. Granted, weather shot on a 7D, RED or cheap consumer camera, isn't the selling point/art of a movie or documentary the story i.e. Paranormal Activity)? Not saying Paranormal Activity is AFI's top 10, but it made profit and people saw it.

So, I think the RED is the winner and is the ultimate goal for the independent filmmaker, but until Scarlet arrives, I believe 7D and other prosumer cameras will be the side quests in the mean time.

 

[Neil W. Smith]

great use of EOS 7D ....

great use of EOS 7D ....

Every camera has it's limitations. The key for me was to surround myself with people that understand their craft and could make the 7d shine as much as possible without internally combust.

http://vimeo.com/7349028

Very witty movie ... great idea executed well .... your DP really knew how to light and shoot the 7D .... who did your color and post?

Keep up the good work, Coco.

Neil

 

[Madjid]

Hi , this is what you can get from the 7d uncompressed images , also as a sequences , it s hard job( with light soft box and post production of course !), but this is what is also also almost possible to get.


http://bighugelabs.com/onblack.php?id=4132798398&bg=white&size=large

___________________________________________________________________
As a young movie maker full of energy I would be glad to betatest the red scarlet .

 

[CocoBermudez]

Very witty movie ... great idea executed well .... your DP really knew how to light and shoot the 7D .... who did your color and post?

Keep up the good work, Coco.

Neil

Thank You very mucho. My DP was George Cunha...great DP and most importantly and awesome human being. He has been in the business for many years and his resume is quite impressive...as much as he hates the limelight.

The post was done by Paula Peterson from Magnolia Post here in Tampa Florida...again, super talented with an equally impressive resume.

No color correcting was done to the footage...just straight from the camera...with 72 hours to complete the task from conception to finish, we had no time for color correcting...when we were reading our meter we found that we were pretty much dead on with the info the 7d was giving us...I just shot and prayed that the 7d would performed as well as I had heard here and in other forums. I had never used one before...kinda nerve wrecking for taking such a task like this.

All the lenses used were Nikons.

 

[Mark Pugh]

I agree.

I think the more interesting question/ point here is which will the independent filmmaker choose?

A friend just bought a 7D, and I've been playing around with it the last few days.
It's very fiddly to use - screen can't be swung around, which if you're handheld holding the camera where you usually want to, is a big problem.
Video quality with the aliasing and 720Pish resolution (it's true it's not 1080P) is well below that of even an EX1. IT'S IN THE LEAGUE OF A HANDYCAM.
Sensor size is nice, but...

Also, no-one's been mentioning here that you can't monitor audio at all on the camera while recording - no headphone jack, no meters... nothing.

Playback can only be monitored via the tiny, very low volume speaker on the camera.

By the time you outfit this camera to get it to any kind of reasonable usability on par with a small HD camera or a Scarlet, you've spent several thousand dollars more, and quality will be much much worse.

Forget any perceived low light advantages of a 7D - buy The Foundry's Furnace software ($150 right now) and clean up your High ISO Red One, Scarlet, etc footage - results will outshine the 7D. Low light 7D footage benefits from this kind of treatment, also.

The 7D's a great viewfinder for recce days or block-throughs - cut your H264 MOVs together in FCP... great for that.

I'm not saying the DSLRs don't have uses - but the uses are limited. Anyone considering shooting a whole Indy film on this for anything above a DVD release is kidding themselves. And the technology will be limiting your creative options, not enhancing them.

 

[Eric Deitz]

Also, no-one's been mentioning here that you can't monitor audio at all on the camera while recording - no headphone jack, no meters... nothing.

I'm not saying the DSLRs don't have uses - but the uses are limited. Anyone considering shooting a whole Indy film on this for anything above a DVD release is kidding themselves. And the technology will be limiting your creative options, not enhancing them.

I agree with you there...it is a pain to monitor audio with it. I have shot scenes for a movie I'm working on with the camera, but there is no audio in scenes. When I have filmed when audio was involved, I recored audio with a field recorder and synched the sound later using the audio from the 7D as a guide.

Would you consider the DSLR with video more fit for short film projects then? CocoBermudez makes a good case I think for DSLR films with his short, which is well executed.

I see your point Mark Pugh, but would also like to say that I disagree. A DSLR like the 7D would not limit creative options if you were on a low budget. For the price of a prosumer HDV camcorder, like a Canon XH-A1, you could purchase a 7D body, two lenses, a field recorder, and a shot gun mic (with cables.) Or could you go more in depth what you mean by limiting creative options?

 

[Mark Pugh]

Or could you go more in depth what you mean by limiting creative options?

Of course the large sensor provides greater choice with depth of field, but I'm mean to say that not being able to monitor the picture properly if the camera is in certain positions, for example, may mean your way of shooting is influenced by the ergonomic limits of the camera.
The lack of ease of focus pulls...
Nice camera moves being more difficult in some situations...
Iris pulls...
length of shot limited to 12 mins...
aliasing problems causing art dept or wardrobe changes...
lack of resolution forcing tighter shots to get the detail...
compression artifacts in the shadows perhaps forcing changes in lighting choices
etc.

these things at best cost time on set, which in itself can force creative compromises at that moment, and later in the day after you've moved along.
Some of the issues can be overcome with more equipment attached... the right lenses, audio recorders, HDMI onboard monitors... $$$.

A regular video camera is a choice worth exploring if the budget is so very limited, I think.

Go into a shop with a CF card, take some shots on a DSLR, or better still get a hold of a camera out in the real world. Go home and put them up in FCP and see what I mean.
In a short form production with fewer shots, it's easier to construct a shotlist that overcomes the limitations of any one camera.
In a feature, there'll be more compromises needed.

 

[Eric Deitz]

I agree, I would prefer shooting with an actual camera if I was going to work on a feature, because there are more on-board in's and out's and the production would work smoother.

 

[Roberto B]

maybe I am a little bit late to the party, but I shot this on the 7d and I kinda like it. It has been a great tool and I have used DSLR's to get me by while I saved enough money to purchased the RED (which I am about to put my order)

Every camera has it's limitations. The key for me was to surround myself with people that understand their craft and could make the 7d shine as much as possible without internally combust.

http://vimeo.com/7349028

coco.. what are you doing here w/ this video man??

that was shot w/ an inferior camera.. hasn't sj told you about?

you should know that someone says that someone said your video can't be broadcasted on bbc now because you said you shot on 7d

sorry mate

even if your video is a marvelous piece of filmmaking.. lots better than many others shot w/ another 35MM digital cameras :shocked: ss pj altogether included.. me bets in months me might join df in this gang bunch too





ss pj df are trademarks of.. in the U.S. and/or other countries. All Rights Reserved.

 

[Neil W. Smith]

Impressive ...

Impressive ...

No color correcting was done to the footage...just straight from the camera...with 72 hours to complete the task from conception to finish, we had no time for color correcting...when we were reading our meter we found that we were pretty much dead on with the info the 7d was giving us...I just shot and prayed that the 7d would performed as well as I had heard here and in other forums. I had never used one before...kinda nerve wrecking for taking such a task like this.

All the lenses used were Nikons.

Wow! ... no color correction in post .... that's pretty damn cool to nail exposure and color so well in the camera ... my compliments to George Cunha ... very nice work ... I often tell customers who are considering shooting RED that the camera is great but it's still all about the talent behind the sensor and the glass in front .... in some ways the limitations of the Canon HD DSLRs might bring out the best in filmmaking talent ... there's so little room for error that you have to really apply all the traditional skills of lighting, measuring and exposure to get it in the camera and not depend on a great colorist to 'fix it in post' .... mmhhmm, might not be good for our little business :-(

Quick question ... I'm pulling together an online Film Festival and Competition that will run from Jan to March next year for filmmakers that shoot on the Canon EOS HD cameras (hopefully I'll be able to expand it to include SCARLET after the Nov 30th announcement) ... was wondering if George would be interested in being one of the Judges .... he has a great eye and obviously a ton of talent ... would you mind asking him to check it out and let me know if he'd be interested ... the site is still a work in progress, so apologies for the rudimentary nature.

http://www.can-dofilmfest.com/

I'd also appreciate any feedback you have as a filmmaker that's into filmmaking competitions ... anything I should add to make it more challenging?

Thanks,
Neil

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

coco.. what are you doing here w/ this video man??

that was shot w/ an inferior camera.. hasn't sj told you about?

you should know that someone says that someone said your video can't be broadcasted on bbc now because you said you shot on 7d

sorry mate

even if your video is a marvelous piece of filmmaking.. lots better than many others shot w/ another 35MM digital cameras :shocked: ss pj altogether included.. me bets in months me might join df in this gang bunch too

Try if this works:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_loss


If not:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/homepage/

 

[Shane Betts]

The other side of the coin.

The other side of the coin.

maybe I am a little bit late to the party, but I shot this on the 7d and I kinda like it. It has been a great tool and I have used DSLR's to get me by while I saved enough money to purchased the RED (which I am about to put my order)

Every camera has it's limitations. The key for me was to surround myself with people that understand their craft and could make the 7d shine as much as possible without internally combust.

http://vimeo.com/7349028

I'm late too but just needed to pipe in here and say well done. Great little movie and a wonderful illustration of how these kinds of tools can free up genuinely creative people to get their projects made.

I've not tested the 7D but I have done the 5DMkII and, yeah, way too fiddly for me and too many situations where the shortcomings show through. Too limiting.

But Coco, your movie shows the other side of the coin. Who knows, perhaps if you had to shoot on Arri or Sony or even Red your project might still be just a script but, thanks to the low cost of the 7D and Nikon MF lenses, along with your bravery and vision, you now have a strong little short up on the web as your calling card. Aside from the technical comparisons, this is a very real testimony to what this kind of technology can deliver.

Hope your career takes off from this. Who knows? Your first feature may be shot on Epic.

 

[Álex Montoya]

Sanjin: I was wanting to do that but my RED is travelling.

Could you please shoot a daylight, deep focus, detailed shot both with the RED and the 7D and then upload the REDs 4K jpg and the 7Ds 1920X1080 jpg.

Just want to see how both cameras relate in the situation where the RED is at its strongest.

 

[Augusto Alves da Silva]

I have been waiting for a very long time for Scarlet... I shot with RED a few times but I don´t understand why people have to be comparing cameras all the time. I don´t care which camera I use as long as it gives me the look I need. While you are all guessing what Scarlet is going to be I am busy working and making money with the what you call "no match obsolete cameras". I make a lot of money with what I have got available...the 7D,the 5D, the GH1, the GF1 etc... I am happy to do it and I will definitely buy a RED Scarlet or Epic when it comes out. When you guys say you will save up more money to buy the Scarlet the longer the wait it makes me smile...you know why? Because I don´t care how much the Scarlet or EPIC will cost. I consider myself to be a professional and can´t work without equipment. I would be out of business if I wouldn´t with one commercial charge enough to pay for 4 or 5 Scarlets. I am sorry but some comments here sound ridiculous. Why amateurs want to be compared to pros if they don´t live off it? Professional is someone who is paid to work on a specific job. Are you really pros by this definition? Just take into account that some people can´t drive Ferraris...you need to be an experienced driver to make it go fast but safely... RED is the natural evolution to people that have been working and finding solutions for a long time...Don´t think you will buy a RED and will just point and shoot and have the greatest image in the world. I have seen amazing image with the RED one and terrible image with it...So please plan your investments on your capacities...be humble and try to deserve a RED... It is a camera for humble but genius people not a camera to boast and keep it in a flight case...

 

[Augusto Alves da Silva]

http://vimeo.com/7371280
This is a video shot with a sub standard camera...have a look and drool...

 

[Álex Montoya]

Hadn't read this:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=186334

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin: I was wanting to do that but my RED is travelling.

Could you please shoot a daylight, deep focus, detailed shot both with the RED and the 7D and then upload the REDs 4K jpg and the 7Ds 1920X1080 jpg.

Just want to see how both cameras relate in the situation where the RED is at its strongest.

Álex,

I'l try to do it during this weekend if I can but only at my small balcony because I wanted to record ProRes 422 HQ instead of H264 with 7D.

One day ago I've got BM Intensity Pro card and did the first low light Quick & Dirty tests (that really means footage is not a perfect one and

have always some flaws as usual, also don't expect anything "creative" in a way of DP aesthetic... it's just a simple, quick and dirty test).

Also have got Foundry's FurnaceCore for FCP, a gorgeous set of plug ins that helps a lot to match both footage together.

Stay tuned.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Hadn't read this:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=186334

http://vimeo.com/7371280
This is a video shot with a sub standard camera...have a look and drool...

Well, those charts look like crap ... and that video looks pretty sweet.

To me it is a matter of understanding its capabilities and limitations and keeping in mind the price. I have a RED, will get epic-x #206, but also just bought a 7D. For $1700 it has a 900K pixel LCD - 50% more pixels and much better off axis viewing than my RED LCD for the same $1700, so with the 7D i get a good LCD .... and a FREE 18MP still camera and a sort of HD video camera (with S35 DOF characteristics). And the "free" still camera - at 18MP, 8FPS, 19 point AF, wireless flash control - is on a par with (and in some ways better than) the BEST Pro 35mm DSLRs of just a couple years ago.

 

[Augusto Alves da Silva]

Well, those charts look like crap ... and that video looks pretty sweet.

To me it is a matter of understanding its capabilities and limitations and keeping in mind the price. I have a RED, will get epic-x #206, but also just bought a 7D. For $1700 it has a 900K pixel LCD - 50% more pixels and much better off axis viewing than my RED LCD for the same $1700, so with the 7D i get a good LCD .... and a FREE 18MP still camera and a sort of HD video camera (with S35 DOF characteristics). And the "free" still camera - at 18MP, 8FPS, 19 point AF, wireless flash control - is on a par with (and in some ways better than) the BEST Pro 35mm DSLRs of just a couple years ago.

Well said Michael...that´s the way to go...

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Well, those charts look like crap ... and that video looks pretty sweet.

To me it is a matter of understanding its capabilities and limitations and keeping in mind the price. I have a RED, will get epic-x #206, but also just bought a 7D. For $1700 it has a 900K pixel LCD - 50% more pixels and much better off axis viewing than my RED LCD for the same $1700, so with the 7D i get a good LCD .... and a FREE 18MP still camera and a sort of HD video camera (with S35 DOF characteristics). And the "free" still camera - at 18MP, 8FPS, 19 point AF, wireless flash control - is on a par with (and in some ways better than) the BEST Pro 35mm DSLRs of just a couple years ago.

Michael,


with your 7D get AJA KiPro HDMI mobile rugged recorder to record ProRes 422 HQ instead H264,

two underwater enclosures (one for 7D and one for AJA KiPro)

and then you'll get the best low light underwater digital cine acquisition rig that can compare with 16mm even 35mm !!!

Could be that a combo with 1DMK4 + AJA KiPro will be a dream underwater low light rig!!!